how do you go about choosing a turbo? I have heard good things about the garrett gt30 and gt35r. on a wrx with that turbo and fmic, inectors and fuel pump, ecu and protune, where do you think I would be at?
Not the most common setup. I normally hear about 16 or 18G turbo's being run with that setup. I know with that you can get well above 300hp. Start acquiring the parts, because for the most part they all have to go on together. You could be spending upwards of $3k for that setup. I would look at more common setups, because you could find them used and in good condition for cheap on the forums. Its all up to you though. Do you have an application in mind for the setup?
with a 30r on a stock block wrx you should see anywhere from 340-350hp on pump gas. You end up with a little more lag than a 18g but the extra power was worth it to me. Matt
I think that a lot of the people talking abut the GT30 and 35 setups are using them on the 2.5 blocks rather than the 2.0. Seems to me it would take a long time to spool one of those on a 2.0 but Matt may be able to tell you more about that.
Everything about putting a GT30R on a 2.0 is about longevity, ours lasted a long time but we may have just been lucky. You are going to see 18lbs right around 4200-4500rpms depending on you're setup. We were spinning the 2.0 to 7500 everyday and 8000 when we went to the track, this doesn't mean I recommend it. If you have another motor on stand-by like we did then by all means beat on it. The other thing you have to worry about is you're gearbox, its not going to take that kind of power long. I flat shifted the tranny everyday with the 18g but the 30R was a different story. The car had an AEM on it and it had launch control and we used it......a .... LOT. Dan at Batlground tuned the car and for a stand-alone there is no one better, Dan knows the AEM inside out and backwards especially the Supra and the Subaru Box. I think his supra box has a serial number of like 003 and my subaru box is 001. Just keep in mind that the 30r is a lot of turbo and on the subaru it is a light switch its either on or off, when its on its a freaking rocket-ship ride to 8000rpms. I personally think its possible to go low 11s on a stock block 2.0 but I don't think it can be done on the stock tranny. Matt
A large topmount and a 16g or if you want more power an 18g would be the best setup. The 16g could put you at slightly over 300hp and 18g closer to mid 300's. Running methanol could bump all of that up slightly and kick the spool earlier. Stick with what the car can support as far as the engine and tranny go, or have a definite application in mind that is feasible.
When you say the 16g will put me slightly over 300hp, does that mean with just the turbo? Or the turbo and the fmic, fuel, tune, etc? It seems that the garrett is a lot bigger than I thought it was. I'd love to go that big but this is my daily driver. And is the 16g/18g a direct replacement on a wrx? Ive been looking at forcedperformance.net at an 18g, it is $875 i think. But they also allow you to get it ported for $95. What does porting a turbo do?
16 and 18gs from fp are direct replacements. You might be able to get over 300hp on an 18g and pump gas if you did all the tricks, MAYBE, now with meth and an 18g 340hp is no problem.
16G is the same turbo as the Evo. Its a really fast spooling turbo with meth you could get close to 300hp. As a daily driver, that is all I would recommend. With just about any new turbo you would have to get a larger IC, fuel pump, injectors, TBE, and of course some sort of EM. I would say keep researching before commiting to a turbo. Start by getting the turbo back exhaust and Cobb, since these are probably the most essential upgrades that need to be done first. That should put you around 240hp to the ground and probably close to 270hp at the crank.
The 16 and 18g are direct replacement turbos. They bolt right on and if you get the water cooled models are a direct replacement. The super 16g (585 cfm) is the one that with meth will get you over 300 hp to the wheels. The 18g more than that. Consider the deadbolt 16 and 18g budget series turbos too. Same price and a great deal. As for porting, from my understanding it will yield better spool up and possibly a bit more flow. I am no expert, but this is what I have found by looking through lots of information and talking to quite a few folks. Also consider giving Seigel a call at Subaru of Gwinnett (or whichever tuner you plan on using) and ask them about their preferences. I am sure they could suggest a good set up that will meet your goals and probably even give you prices, etc. I just choose Seigel as he is very knowledgeable and is pretty free with his information and opinions. Not only that but he will actually talk you out of stuff you don't need or that is not benificial.
whats up? first things first build the car on paper first which means figure out how much power you want to make, then write down parts & the cost while you build your set up. it is better to spend your money right once inside of twice. i think you should really think hard about putting in a 2.5 short block, you will be happyer in the long run. the 2.5 really will open up your turbo buying options.
That is my plan Block, ppg tranny, injectors and radiator first, turbo second...but much more money for sure.
You can save $400-$500 dollars easy by forgetting the radiator. I know if you upgrade you car components its good to up grade the cooling system, but this is not some rice burner honda, our cooling system work great from the factory. I have seen sti`s up down 475whp & 405wtq and they run stock radiators. Try this, between ME and YOU! The mercedes benz coolant is great use it first. it has a water weter addative that allows the car to run cooler using the same systems.
16g available to subaru is NOT NOT NOT the same turbo as what evo8 or evo9 has. FP evo 16g is the closest turbo to real evo9 turbo (which has titanium shaft, bigger hotside, and etc.) Plus I doubt that 16g will put you above 300whp unless the car is tuned to the edge There are lots of wrxatlanta members with upgraded turbo. Also If you are more into HP#, check out nasioc's proven power forum. gt30 sounds like a scary fast drive... but i'm happy with what I have. (yea right~ lol)
Forget the cooling system, Dont do anything to it, it works fine. Scott and myself have hotlapped my car at Barber, Roebling and CMP on Mulitple occasions, if it doesnt over heat with us driving it on track for 1 hour straight then you dont have anything to worry about. Matt
Not to jack things, but I think that upgrading the efficiency of the cooling system is always a good idea when upgrading the horsepower to over 2x that which the original radiator was designed to handle....more hp=more heat. I beliethat the Sti Radiator and the wrx are different beasts I think, but I have been wrong before. I have read a couple threads where oil temperatures and coolant temps have gone pretty high with the 2.5 block and something as small as a 18g on a wrx radiator and stock "oil cooler". I have always believed in upgrading cooling when upgrading hp and I think both good quality oil coolers and radiators are benificial. Just have to put together a nice kit with an oil temp thermostat for the cooler that allows it to retain enough heat. I have dealt with many cars where turning up the hp too much taxed the cooling system and resulted in overheating. I just don't want to spend $4000 on a good quality engine and turbo to have it go up when I could spend several hundred and have prevented it.
Hopefully Siegel will chime in on this. I have seen more STIs and Wrxs have problems with overheating that have upgraded cooling systems. What I havent ever seen is a stock one that is properly maintained have a problem. Oil coolers are a diffrent issue, if you are having oil temp problems then you need one, if you are not then you dont and it does nothing but create more potential leaks and such. Matt
Depending on what you plan to do with the car, like if you plan to make it a track car then maybe upgrading the cooling system will be great. You can go to topspeeds power plant page and look at some high hp subys and see that they mostly run stock cooling systems.
Ok at the expene of sounding stupid, how can upgrading the cooliing system more more problems....i can understand having leaks if you have more conections, but come on...better quality radiator and a real oil cooler having more issues...sounds fishy to me. Fact is that epoxy and core radiators have more issues than quality welded aluminum cores...it's just a fact of life in the performance world. I mean just upgrading to a higher pressure radiator cap has caused many stock wrx radiators ta pop.
First why would you upgrade to a higher pressure cap, I think that people highly underestimate how much R&D goes into these cars at the factory. Second Upgrading the cooling system, People always want to do stuff like put a lower temp thermostat and aluminum radiators. That's all fine and good except that the car doesn't need to run cooler, so there is no need for a cooler thermostat and the radiators that most people buy are complete junk. The Fluidyne Radiator is the one exception to this rule. Oil coolers is a whole different topic. If you are seeing oil temps higher than they should be then you need one, if you aren't then you don't need one its that simple. If you don't ever see oil temps above normal then you are just creating more problems. Matt
Well I guess that the problems of the wrx radiators failing is something I would be concerned about. I don't plan on going with a different thermostat, just a new radiator and oil cooler. An ounce of prevention is always worth it in the long run. Yes, there was a large amount of engineering done on these cars from the factory, but as the unlimited number of transmission failures indicate, the research and development was aiming at factry specs, not at 2 times the factory specs. At 227 hp I am sure that my stock radiator and oil cooler are plenty and I would never think of changing them...at 527 hp they probably are way outside of their specs. You can't even pretend to tell me that the factory WRX cooling system (and everything else on the car for that matter...clutch, transmission gears, rear end, fuel pump, axles, ECU programming, injectors...I could go on) was designed to see above 227 hp. Hell you go above 300 and now you are talking about needing to upgrade a bunch of stuff. I think upgrading the cooling system should be on the list as well for a WRX. The Sti maybe not. There is a lot more engineering that went into the Sti and a good percentage of the parts are designed to be good over stock specs. But even the Sti needs upgrades at some point. It's crazy to think that everything on the car is going to be fine no matter how much hp it has above the factory specs. Ya add more hp ya get more heat. It is just a basic principle of automotive performance. The last thing you want to worry about is blowing the engine because you didn't think about how all these mods tax the factory cooling system. As for why anyone would want to change the pressure of their radiator with an Sti radiator cap...the Sti has them already I believe. It increases the boiling temperature of the fluid in your system so that you don't run the risk of boilover when running the car hard. Odviously Subaru in all it's R&D thought this might be benificial or their Sti group would not make the part or sell it!
Just some threads that deal with this as well as some posts in the threads. The upgraded cooling system also helps keep det down as coolant temps remain more stable. Going with the 160 thermostat has been shown to help with this, but I am going to wait on that. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194762&page=3&highlight=radiator+detonation I was honestly only shooting for 320whp. That radiator kept his coolant temps remarkably low to around 81-83C on the dyno where we would normally see 86-90C. Let's not forget that intercooler. As soon as we turned the dyno fan on, his ecu started to add large amounts of fuel to just idle. That is some serious cooling! Phil TurboXS This car was not tuned to the edge, although i suspect that he could use some larger fuel injectors, but it was not anywhere near detonation. If you don't realize the benefits of a decent cooling system to pull heat from the head and combustion chamber of a car and the further impact that has on detonation then you may well be beyond help. The radiator didn't make power, but it sure helped remove heat from the head, and as such likely allowed us to make more power on pump gas without detonation. How much more? I don't know. -Nathan www.turboxs.com http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509327&highlight=radiator+detonation A cooler engine is less prone to detonate. A hotter engine normally runs cleaner and is more effecient. A cooler engine will probably last longer and it will certainly raise the detonation threashold of the engine. A leaner AFR can probably be run and or more boost. High HP WRX's can get over 105C on long pulls. A single Dyno pull on a 400whp WRX will have a rise of 15-20 degrees. AZscoobie This is the reason the prostockers make their runs with water temps down around 140 deg. It loweres the tendency to detonate. When I went to the coolsafe 160 thermostat I suddenly dropped almost 3 tenths at the drag strip because the ECU was not pulling timing. Shortly after changing to the new thermostat, I dropped my best ET from 13.785@98.77 to a new personal best of 13.379@101.83. Larry
When I was making more power on a stock block than any of those people were making I was using a stock thermostat. 407whp....HMMMMMMM 11s on a stock block 2.0 the only person on that list that can claim to have done that is Clark. There is nothing wrong with the stock thermostat, dyno numbers mean nothing they dont have anything to do with anything. The fan on the dyno moves less than 1\10th the air that the car seems at normal cruising speeds.
So what you are saying is that none of their findings are valid because they had a different setup with different turbos? And the fact that they found the engine temperatures to be cooler with an upgraded radiator thus leading to cooler heads and lower tendancy to detonate also means nothing? Just because your setup did well does not mean that it can not be improved upon...agree on that at least? Imagine if you could have put a couple more degrees of timing in there or been able to flow a couple psi more boost due to a decreased tendency to det or knock? How much more could you have made safely? Again consider cooling system upgrades a safety blanket. It is never harmful for a street car to have better cooling components. I mean you agree with the oil cooler. Don't be afraid of new information that could be benificial.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=809694 Another good thread for people looking for further information. Another good post by the guys from Element: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quite some time ago we did some comparisons between cars with cooler thermostats, those with water wetter, those with radiators. What we found on the dyno was that water wetter dramatically cut down the recovery time so coolant temps dropped much faster once the radiator fans kicked on. Cars with a thermostat upgrades and water wetter ran cooler and recovered quicker, hard to believe but true. Now this could be due to the lower initial temps or there may be some merit to a higher flowing thermostat. Cars with a radiator upgrade, no water wetter, and not thermostat hardly did any better on the dyno than an OEM setup. Things change in the real world with adequate airflow but these were my non scientific observations. Thanks, Phil www.elementtuning.com _________________________________________________________________________________________ And some interesting information about what adding a higher pressure radiator cap actually does: It's not supposed to lower coolant temperatures, it's supposed to lower head surface temperatures. It's also not supposed to run any significant coolant pressure, so it's a bit odd that it caused the rad-cap to open. Are you sure the customer drained the engine properly before making the swap? You have to have less than 2% water in the system for this stuff to even work. Kinda tricky to get all the water out without removing the entire engine. Because it has a lower surface tension than water or EGW, and a higher heat of vaporization, it should make the heads themselves run cooler even if the coolant temps are higher. When the engine is under load the head temperature is much higer than the boiling point of water or NPG+, so almost all of the heat transfer is done via boiling, rather than just convecting. So the specific heat of the coolant is less important than its heat of vaporization. The lower surface tension of the NPG+ should be beneficial as well. Water wetter makes its business off lowering the surface tension of water to improve heat transfer; it's a surfactant. -Adrian
Wow, was just doing some browsing and found that www.turbochargers.com had the td05-18g for $699!! Comes with water lines too. That is just an insane deal.
crashtke, i just looked at that site. Why is it that the Big16g is only $599, while the vf 34 is 1800 bucks? I thought the 16g was a better turbo. am i wrong? dennis
The price difference is that Turbochargers.com or tc.c manufacture their own turbos. The 16g, 18g and others that they sell are made by them. The IHI turbos are not and they sell them at msrp I would guess. I really could not tell you, just guess. But that TD05-18g usually goes for anywhere from $175-$500 more depending on where you get them. That thing is capable of flowing over 600 cfm and would make an excellent turbo for the 2.0. I believe they also do porting and polish work for a little more. You could mod your own injectors and send them out for flow testing or just order the deushcworks injectors and be done with it.
Just got finished really looking at their page and it seems that they have some more turbos coming out in the upcoming months that are pretty hot. They are not really giving too many details right this second, but stuff good for up to the 500 hp range. I look forward to seeing what they bring out. I might even be one of the first to test some of their stuff here in the Atlanta area.