Around how much does eveything cost for the Ecutek and for SS to tune it, or does that include the tune as well, i have finaly saved up the money. i can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or should I go with the acessport?
For Sale: V.1 Access Port with everything it came with. HA! Kidding. I too am interested. I have an AP already and using Stage 2. In a bit I'll be putting on a vf39, STI TMIC, fuel pump (<- I do need this, right???), injectors, and getting it tuned at SOG (Hi Scott. I'm Mike. I'll see you soon). Should I be looking into selling off the AP for a Ecutek??? Or will I get the same result with Cobb Pro Tune?
Ecutek FTW...IMHO, but I am still somewhat of a n00b. I have the VF39 and did pinks and fuel pump all together. Went from 251/251 to 307/292.
It seems like once you go with Ecutek you can't do anything else. What they don't tell you is once you use Ecutek you're trapped! There is no way to undo it. Forgive me if this isn't true. I'm in a particularly horrible mood right now.
not everyone has the option(05 sti owners for one). No doubt that Ecutek was the best EM on the market when I had it done. But from what i hear and read about AP, it is a hands down choice in EM.
Ecutek is $850, and that includes 2 hours of road tuning (which is enough for most "normal" setups). Right now the AP is sort of the "better product" due to it's ease of changing maps... Used AP 1.0's are under $500. Add 2.5 to 3 hours of tuning ($300 to $360) and you are good to go SS
Guys, can we just stop this stuff, it does not add any value to the discussion... as you point out you're a 'n00b' to this so what exactly makes Ecutek 'FTW' other than you using it? Ecutek, AP, OpenECU, they all poke data into tables and it really does not matter which tool you're using as far as making power. You can poke the same data into the same table using either solution. The AP allows for some flexibility with map changes that Ecutek does not (other than some tables on the 02/03 cars, I believe). Sorry if I come across as a dick, but I keep seeing a lot of 'FTW!' and 'FTL!11!!!111' posts with little substance or explanation as to what exactly makes anything such...
hopefully i'll get tuned next week by scott when the swap is all done. if you already heave ecutek it is $120 and hour. can somebody (scott?) verify that?
Not sure exactly what the new AP has as far as options, but it should take care of it as that is one of the mods for stage 2. My can when I bought it was stage 2 (although not an Sti) and it threw no CEL's with stage 2 AP V1 map. As for the debate, Enginuity and the others can be just as good. I think it is all in the tuning. I prefer the AP with Street Tuner combo. This is not currently available to the AP 2.0 users, but should be in the near future. Scott can tune in ST maps (yup I asked before buying it) and most other tuners will too. It gives you day to day control over the ECU. Notice the tune going a little funny in cold weather, back off some of the values and you can always add them back yourself. It features realtime tuning, wideband O2 support, and nice graphical representations. It even comes with a tuning guide if you are one of those guys that wants to learn. While for the overwhelming number of users this does not replace having a good pro-tune (myself included, but I am trying to learn!), it does give you the ability to tweak things if you decide to buy one more part or two after your pro-tune OR tune your car some before you get all the mods you want on there to have the pro-tune done. I guess it is just me, but I want to have it pro-tuned once...not add a part, get a tune, add a part, get a tune, repeat indefinitely. While I am sure my personal tune is no where near what a good pro tune could do, it does keep me going until I can get everything together for my final goals...
Ecutek has most maps available (for tuners. ex> boost map, WDC map, etc.) even one that you dont need. Cobb has more flexibilities about switching maps (pump gas, racing gas, meth injection, valet, etc.) and popularity of cheaper off-the-shelf maps. (BTW ecutek also has off-the-shelf maps at cheaper prices) OpenECU can do almost everything that ecutek & cobb can do as far as tuning goes. All stock reflash has the same ability as far as how much power and how safely can be tuned. Go with what you are comfortable with. I took little late with openECU, but not too late.
I'm still curious to see what SS thinks about OpenECU and such. I get the feeling they're a little bit less reliable.
i don't think openecu is less reliable than others... there's a certain way to burn the ecu, so its either done right or not at all... the only difference in my mind would be accessibility to tables... openecu users: are there less tables in openecu compared to AP or ecutek?
well..some ppl can't afford ecutek or ap bc...of the price and everything... I also want to know what SS thinks about the OpenECU..I heard all u only have to pay for is the tuning for lyk 2-3 hours..
To be competitive I will tune anything for $120 per hour. But what I really think about OpenECU is pretty well summed up by the fact that I think it's REDICULOUS that somebody spent the time to RIPOFF Ecutek and release something for free which does nothing but damage the entire industry. Ecutek has had teams of people for years working on making AND SUPPORTING a good product and OpenECU is a direct RIPOFF. They don't even charge for it, so all it does it take money out of the pockets of people who made it their CAREER (how they pay their bills) to provide us with a good product. For anybody who doubts that OpenECU is a DIRECT HACK of Ecutek check this out: These tables are NOT "labelled" in the ECU. Those names were created by Ecutek YEARS ago, and then essentially hacked, stolen, and given away free by OpenECU. So what do I "think" about OpenECU? I think it's a terrible shame that they chose to destroy another company's business by stealing. I'll tune it, but there is NO WARRANTY on your ECU. SS
Ethics aside, business is business unfortunately. How do you think GM felt when Toyota first came to the US w/ their trucks Or Zenth, Mangavox, RCA when Japan came over with their black and white tvs forever ago. This is exactly what happens in markets where a single business starts to become somewhat complacent and non-competetive. First Cobb strolled in and took some of the thunder, now you have the 3rd party sitting in the back taking all the notes remaining extremely quiet. Incidences like this are exactly what drive businesses to maintain a sustainable competetive advantage. Honestly, I feel like Ecutek probably could have secured things more effectively legally. They wrote the code & the security, it would surprise me to hear one of them say that it was bulletproof from the beginning. Yes, they're losing money. Yes, I'm sure someone is going to get fired. If Ecutek wants to respond and put openecu out they should (a) finally produce the handheld device that perhaps will put them in the spotlight and (b) legally pursue action against Ecutek; that is, of course, if they can prove anything at all. Extremely well written letter from Ecutek btw. Ill have some comments later today on their market mentality.
The difference is, Zenith, Toyota, etc.. came to the US market with their own product that they spent developing, researching, fine tuning etc, and gave the US companies competition. They did not come here and offer their products for free. They might have been much cheaper, but that is how business works. Because of Toyota, Zenith, etc... the American companies had to step up their game and develop something equal or better at a reasonable price. If OpenECU decided to due thier own grunt work and develop thier software themselves, even if it is modeled after EcuTek, then at that point, their software would no longer be free. They would have had to put thier time into it, and would in turn charge for thier work. If it is half the price of EcuTek, that is fine, they are not downright stealing. They are then providing legitimate competition, just like Cobb. Cobb forced EcuTek to rethink how they were doing business, and come up with new things, like EasyECU. If OpenECU developed their own software, even if it was modeled after EcuTek, and then offered it for free, that would also be legitimate. If they are spending thier own money for research and development, and then choose to offer their time and energy spent for free, that would be acceptable. But the fact that thier software is a direct ripoff of EcuTek, as seen above, then what they are doing is wrong, and in the long run will hurt us all, as options for EM disappear. Also, that third party (OpenECU) that you say is sitting in the back, taking notes, is not what is happening. They are waiting for someone else to put the time and money into development, then stealling it and calling it their own, and not charging anything for it. What they are doing is technically illegal, though thru some loophole, they are getting away with it. What would happen if I were to go to Blockbuster and rent a bunch of movies, copy them, then turn around and rent the copies I made out, for free. I took the product that Blockbuster pays alot of money for, stealing it from them, then cut them out of the equation and totally take away their business. It is one thing to add competetion thru your own hard work. It is another thing to take someone elses idea and call it your own. Competetion is SS tuning the same software that Doug is tuning, and one being better than the other. Competetion is not one party having to charge for something, and another company using something the exact same, that is stolen and free. That is cheating the system. What would happen if we charged say $5 a month for access to WRXatlanta, which you Alex have put much time and energy into, adn then someone came along, copied our site exactly, changed the background color from Blue to Red, and offered it for free. They stole your hard work and labor, and are taking money out of your pocket because of it. Now, I understand the forum example above is not a true world example, what makes WRXatlanta is the community so a direct copy of our site may or may not take away money from your pocket, but it is the same basic idea. Now change the basic idea into a physical product and what is the end result.
According to moose Enginuity is a bunch of guys that are reverse engineering the software and the ECU...not just stealing someone else's work. If a bunch of enthusiasts want to dedicate their time to a cause, I think it is great. It is no different than any DIY mod. There is no stealing here as you allude Jason, just guys that dig the Suabru wanting to go fast.
Right and I understand that now. I have nothing against what Enginuity is doing. My Arguement was based on the Email from EcuTek saying that OpenECU is a direct ripoff of EcuTek. If someone wants to use their skills to help the community freely, I am all for that, but if they are stealing another companies product (As the Email from EcuTek is trying to say) and offering thier product that they charge for as your own, for free, that is where I would have an issue. Moose cleared up this misleading arguement from EcuTek in the other thread, and at this point, based on what Moose posted, I think EcuTek completely deserves what is coming to them.
Personally I find it crazy that this has not been done on more vehicles. I was trying to find something for my buddy for his Prelude and could not come up with anything...that being said, the average WRX owner tends to be a bit more....educated I would say than the average civic owner. Seems like a lot of techie type people own WRX's and Sti's compared to the Honda ricer guys who mainly seem to focus on giving their ride BLING! Give me performance over bling any day, lol.
Check out http://www.pgmfi.org/ -- they are working on Honda ECUs. Not sure how much they've done, but they were mentioned on enginuity.org a while back in relation to other ECU projects...
Get out much? No...I mean seriously! How many riced out WRX's do you see out there % wise to the number of riced out Hondas? I am not talking about people who drive a Honda because it gets excellent gas mileage and will last a long time. I am talking about people who mod their hondas. The Subaru community overall is not as much into show as go. How many hondas do you see going down the road with monster wings and graphics down the side with nothing but a fart can muffler and an intake on an otherwise stock vehicle....oh maybe some wheels and springs that slam the car to the ground...now compare that to the number of WRX owners with double decker wings and crap like that. Sure a little rice is ok here and there in mild doses...but not to the extent that the Honda guys take it. Again, the average person who modifies their Honda, not all of them...that would be a stereotype. I am a realist. I call it as I see it. I am not going to say that there are not some seriously nice honda cars out there. The S2000 is a very nice car and I considered buying one. I was between the WRX and the S2000 and decided on something that was a bit different from other cars I had owned. Now look to the Subaru community and see how many do the same thing. Average mods on a Subie tend to be exhaust that actually does something other than make loud obnoxious noises, a larger intercooler for better cooling efficiency, handling modifications that ACTUALLY make the car handle BETTER, not just slamming it to the ground, an upgraded turbocharger that actually makes it go fast and last but not least, EM. Maybe we could post a poll as to mods done on WRX. I think we would see TBE and EM as two of the top mods.
I think one reason you see so many riced out Hondas is that you can get them for a lot less money these days. If you look at the typical 'ricer' it's likely to be a late 90s / early 2000s Civic or Accord, something that can be had for dirt cheap. The WRX is still out of reach for a lot of people, even the 2002s still command $11-12k on average or something close to that. I suspect that in a few years we'll see plenty of WRXs 'riced out' with various bling mods... There are lots of nice Hondas out there (a neighbor has a pretty sweet turbo hatch), and lots of performance enthusiasts. Just looks at the Civics on an autox course. I don't think it's so much a function of the car/make itself as it is the availability of inexpensive ones...
Sure we could go into the economics of it if you want I know that is a favorite topic of yours. Mine too as that was part of my major...socioeconomic differences. But that said, the "stereotype" fits currently. I agree that when the price comes down you will see some changes to the community. But for now the Honda community is what it is and the Subaru community is what IT is. Once again, I NEVER said there were not some nice hondas out there. The same seems to hold true for the S2000 crowd...again more expensive and not as obtainable for most of the people who rice these cars out. I am not taking anything away from the performance that has been obtained by people who own Hondas or Acuras for that matter, just what you see out there on average. And I stand by my original statement...you just see more performance mods on Subarus and more fart cans and MEGA wings on hondas.
Just to update with more "on topic", the ecutek now is $150 per license. $150 + $120x2hr = $390 total for cutom-tuned engine management. Damn!!! way way cheaper than AP + protune. Maybe I should go back to ecutek??