The Saga Continues: Head Stud and Gasket Discussion

Thanks. Are you using a standard heat gun? Also are you using the copper gasket spray on the head gasket surfaces?

 

I can ask ARP, but as long as ive used them, thats been the protocol

im not saying your wrong, im just going by what i know and have experience with.

every motor i have ever worked with has said to retorque which include

Ballers STI motor
B18C1
B18C5
B18B
K20A2
B16A
D16
SR20DET
KA24DE
2JZGTE
1JZGTE

furthermore, i have had people blow headgaskets from NOT retorquing. Several Honda people have declined to have their studs retorqued and have ended up blowing headgaskets and upon tear down the headstuds were loose

 

I see...and I understand. We're on the same page....but we have a HUGE difference in experience that leads us into opposite directions.

My area of expertise is limited to the EJ18/20/22/25, EG33, EZ30/36, EA82, ER27....All SUBARU engines. My knowledge of the EJ20H/G/K and EJ22G (JDM specific) SUBARU engines is limited since they are far and few between here.

As for the EVO engines....I have some experience, but very limited. I can tell you how to install cams (non-MiVEC), head studs, turbos, manifolds, clutches...thats it

Other than that...dunno, cant tell you.

 

I am curious as to what the final torque comes out to be when you use the stock bolts with Subaru's torque sequence compared to what you end up with the ARPs.

I just recently installed heads with the stock bolts and gaskets and the torque was less than 85 ft lbs.

 

Even more info:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1083106.html

seems there is a lot of mis information going on

 

Which is most likely the case on all the Crawford long blocks that blow head gaskets w/ARPs....not TQ'd right to begin with...and loose when it is torn down. I've seen 2 of those specifically.

 

I gotcha, and again, im not trying to get in a pissing match at all. I couldnt even tell you how to set the timing on a scooby

-love, VTECkidd

 

That's nothing new....don't feel bad.

 

If the stock headstuds are a BOLT design, then the TQ will be different because the ARPs is a stud and nut design.

Clamping forces are different

just like if you use MOtor oil instead of ARP moly lube, your TQ numbers must be different . The friction will be different depending on what lubricant you use

 

Yeah, lots of mis info there.


There's a reason behind the factory TQ pattern...it seems crazy, but hey...of the 80~100 engines I've put together....zero head gasket problems.

Ron's TQ procedure is similar to the factory...but missing a few steps. If it works, it works. Again, I'd really like to see long term comparisons.

 

Do not chase the threads in a subaru block....Matt

 

Why is that?

 

I shouldn't say that, don't chase the threads unless you have too. You want all the material there you can get.

Will I'm a little suprised that you think its ok to use a factory fastner on a motor generating basically three times the cylinder pressure of a factory motor.

 

I don't work for BG

 

But your bro's car (which is what this thread was originally about) is AT BG being worked on by BG...so therefore its BG's and the customer's choices as to what's going on with the car.

 

Screw it... just throw some JB weld on that biznitch and some zip ties.

 

Just making sure you understand that.

 

For the love of god can we please stop with the damn shop wars? This thread was going great with good technical info from 3 different shops and now it's turning into a damn shop war it seems.

 

Well....they work. *shrug*

If we were talking about an EVO or Honda engine or something...we would be in 100% agreement.

 

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Thats my secret damnit! :rofl:

 

Matt posting from Scotts name, I just want to make sure its clear I don't work for Batlground

 

I'm gay

 

wait.... doesn't siegel work for batlground though? that thing looks like a monster!

 

We know scotts gay....we know matt doesnt work for BG.

Matts a big gay BG cheerleader tho.

 

I'm going to sue you all for $1 so i can by some Advil for my new headache.

BG- you do what you want to. Will- you do what you want to. everybody- do what you want to. you're not going to change eachother's minds because you're all too big headed to give/take a little.

The only solution: :hug:



and maybe a little: :3mol:

 

^
Nice.

 

Oh shit! There you go giving out misinformation!!! You forgot duct tape!!!! Oh the nerve *rolls eyes*














Ahahahahahahah!

Love, Tracy

 

MEN and their testosterone. I swear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
















Ahahahhahhahah!
Tracy, again.

Look all of you boys are my friends and all of you are still very pretty. I know you all love each other you just don't know how to show it. *group hug*

 

Not true, I took some of what I learned from Ron at Axis and Some of what I learned from Doug.

I'm open to new ideas as long as they don't involve a fastener that was designed for 300hp.

Matt

 

*Grins* It just gets frustrating when you are trying to find good info and valid info. Then when all the clutter comes in it ticks everyone off (okay okay it ticks me off). That is why Nasioc sucks and we don't want that here bc when someone goes to search it would be nice to get the results you want in the first few posts instead of having to climb through page after page after page of bicker and garbage.

 

Dude, you've got it wrong...the bolt in question was ORIGINALLY designed for a 155hp engine.

 

Good looking out.
~Tracy

 

What..... NEVAR!!!! We need more HEAD STUDDDAAAAASSSS!!!!

 

LOL@ Doug

i mean, no one is arguing, there is no shop wars. we are all arguing personal expierience.

who wants beer?

 

Agreed completely. Hence our strict policies on WRXatlanta. If it looks like bickering to us, then we will treat it like it is. Thankfully this thread has not gone south.

Some people may not agree with our methods but they have worked in the past and will continue to be used.

 

bottom line is this:

ARP has certain methods. this is their business, i believe they know what is best for THEIR product.

but sometimes people have methods that may work best for them, and they go by the saying "if it aint broke , dont fix it"

I cant ARGUE against what Will has SEEN or cars he has worked on. Thats his expierience, he has had great success with OEM parts.

He cant argue with me because im posting about my personal experience, and i dislike OEM bolts on built engines making high boost

Neither of us can argue with doug, because he has learned his own way (and shared it with us, thanks!) and he knows this is the best for him.

We ALL Learned something today IMO

cheers

Mike

 

Indeed.

 

Agreed and it should be that way. Thanks for sharing everyone.....I now know what to do when I build my engine.

 

just poking my head in to say this has been a great read so far. we're really lucky here in atlanta to have so many experienced/knowledgable engine builders for our cars. it makes it fun for guys like me who don't know a damn thing and are trying to wrap their heads around this stuff!

carry on...

 

As soon as I get the funds to start. Can't give a timeframe though.

 

Any way we could get this in the threads of note?

 

Ill do a write up tonight and Ill include all the important notes from me, Doug, Will etc..

 

I heard rumors...but rumors are just that...rumors.

Was there a solution found?

 

We will know for sure in a couple of days, the motor is ready to be picked up. Just needs to be put in.

 

I see.

I am honestly interested to see the results.

 

Been some discussion over on nasioc on this topic where Doug and I are called wankers by ron at axis for even suggesting that cosmetic gaskets may not work well.

 

I don't think that cometics are the problem honestly. We switched the bugeye back to stock gaskets, but we really did it to pick up a little more compression as they were thinner than the cometics that were in it.

I think torqueing them down with the factory sequence is probally the answer.

Matt

 

I just noticed this post and didn't read the whole thing but I thought I would mention that I'm using ARP head studs and stock head gasket. I used the following method when installing and torquing the heads stud nuts. This info was provided by Quirt Crawford. So far its been over a year and a half with no problems. Knock on wood.

First I make sure that nothing is at the bottom of the stud hole in the block. Do NOT use a tap to chase / clean the threads.

Then I put some oil on the bottom threds of the studs.

I then run them in untill they bottom out in the block, "they must bottom out".

Install the gasket and head.

Put the lube on the studs so that when you put the washers on there will be lube between the head and washer. Look at the washer and put the rounded outside edge against the head.

Put more lube on the studs, then install the nuts. Extra lube is better than not enough.

Torque to 20 ft lbs.
Torque to 40 ft lbs.
Torque to 60 ft lbs.
Torque to 85 ft lbs.

I let the motor sit for an hour or so and then retorque at 85.