Switching to and from a dedicated track pad

I am considering getting a set of dedicated track pads. Since I don't hit the track very often, these pads will probably see limited use. I would like to know if there is anything I need to be aware of while switching to and from these pads. On the street I run the Carbotech Panther Plus. I'm thinking of picking up a set of XP12 and XP10 for the track. Some concerns arise in my mind:

1. I remember reading somewhere that before switching pads, you need to make sure that there is no residue remaining on the rotor from the earlier pad. This can be accomplished by turning the rotors. How important is this, especially since I am going with the same brand (different compound though)?
2. Do the track pads need consistent use before they go bad? I had a set of R-compounds that dried out over the winter and had really poor grip when I put them back on the car in the spring. I know that brake pads and tires are different, but was wondering if there is something else that I need to be concerned about.
3. Do I need to repeat the break-in procedure every time I switch pads?

If there is anything else I should know, please let me know.

 

Race pads need a bed in procedure each time they see a 'new rotor' which means every time you take out the street pads and put in the track pads.

Turning the rotors is only important if they are:

1. Warped.
2. Excessive grooving.
3. Excessive pad transfer on the rotor.

I'd just run the track pads on the street.

They do not 'heat cycle out' like race tires do...however when the pad material gets thin, its braking ability decreses...so then there's about 15%~20% pad left, replace.

 

Just buy another set of rotors and swap it all out at once. That way if you do damage the rotors during a track day or something you always have a instant replacement.

 

Milo, the best thing to do is buy a second set of rotors, that way you don't have to bed the pads each time. If you stick with the same compound then the bedding period between new padsets is shorter as well.

Unless you are going to run a very aggressive street tire like the Neova or the RE01r then the XP12s might be a little much. If you are going to run an R-Comp then the XP12s will be fine. I like the XP12s in the front with the XP10s in the back with Neovas. With Hoosiers I like XP16s in front.

Matt

 

FYI, even the XP's will overheat without brake ducts.

 

Yes, I am running the RE01R. I intend to run them on the street as well as on the track.

IIRC, the bedding procedure requires one heat cycle, right? Couldn't I do that during a warm up session on the track, or even on the way to the track?

I would really prefer not to swap rotors every time I go to the track. However, the idea of keeping a spare set is good. My rotors have never been turned. How likely are they to crack, if all they will see are probably 15 minute hot sessions? I don't plan to run courses that have straights much longer than Tally.

 

This man speaks the truth, these cars need brake ducts for track use. I overcooked the XP12s at Road Atlanta.

But the problem went away once we installed the brake ducts.

Matt

 

I agree, but at RA you would reach much higher speeds. Have any of you cooked XP's at Tally?

 

You probally can't get enough heat in them on the street to bed them. I doubt you are going to crack rotors until you go to a slick. If I recall correctly we didn't start to get heat checking till I started running hoosiers.

 

I'll probably take the highway on the way to the track. If I can find a spot with limited traffic, shouldn't a couple hard stops from 80 to 40 produce enough heat?

 

I can cook pads anywhere but most people can't hurt them at Tally. One of my best skills is braking, I tend to take the car very very deep into the the corner and I trail brake it into a lot of corners pretty hard. I would say I'm harder on brakes than most guys are.

This isn't a slam against you Milo so don't take it that way. You're car is you're daily driver and you tend to leave a lot on the table even at Tally, that being said I don't think you are going to have a problem with XP10s or 12s. You might actually have to drive it in a little deeper just to keep the pad temps up.

Matt

 

If you are pulling the pads after ever race, the rotors come right off also. There are no extra bolts to remove.

 

No, the carbotech directions are pretty specific and you basically almost have to get them up to full temp and then let the car sit for 30 minutes.

Matt

 

Technically on the STI you don't have to take off the caliper to remove the pads. You just pull the two pins on the top.

Matt

 

Not true...Non Brembo's have two 17mm bolts for the caliper bracket THEN the rotor comes off.

For Brembos and the JDM/US 4 pots the pads slide in/out with just pins and clips...but to get the rotor off there are two 19mm bolts for the Brembos, and two 17mm's for the 4 pots. Rears are 17mm Brembo, and 14mm for rear 2 pots..

 

I'll be the first to agree that I don't drive the car anywhere close to the limit. It is my daily driver and my only car. I drive hard enough for it to be fun, but avoid pushing beyond what I am fully comfortable with. I always try to leave a foot or so at the apex and track out just to be extra safe. I am not competitive like you are, I am just doing this for fun. The car probably won't see race rubber anytime in the near future.

However, brake fade is one way to lose out on a fun filled track event. I'm looking for pads that would work well for my style. If you think the 12's and 10's are too much, would you recommend 10's and 8's? I have repeatedly cooked the Panther Plus pads, so I know I need something better.

 

You know the more I think about it you were pretty quick when we were playing at little tally, you might should go 12\10. I don't think you will have a fade problem with that setup. The thing with 12s and 10s on street tires is that you have to be aggresive on the brakes but you can't just slam them on or you will get into the ABS instantly.

Matt

 

Just get the XP30000's and it'll be fine.

 

Thanks

Good to know. I personally prefer a brake setup in which a little pedal motion makes a big difference in braking. I don't like to have to put all my weight into it, just makes heel toe more difficult. So far it seems that the 12/10 combination would be my best bet.

 

+1

milo, i'm running 10front and 8rear... you need to run "hot" laps to get them bedded properly.

i also swap them out for brembos when i go back onto the street. no problems yet.

 

Have you used them at Tally? Any fading at all?

Wondering if the 10/8 combo would be better for me than the 12/10 combo since I will be using street tires :dunno

 

dunno if it would be "better" or not... but i had NO fade of any kind. i was on the stock re070 tires.
i pushed it pretty deep trying to get things to cook, and they wouldn't. i think i went for about 15min or so straight trying to burn things out, but the tire traction gave up first.

i do plan on brake ducts in the not too distant future, just to keep the threshold a bit higher.

 

I have Hawk Blue fronts for sale. I used them one day and it rained the whole time so no major wear. they are practically new. Fits STi calipers.

$150

LMK.

Also, I just went to lil tally and never had brake fade with ATE-Blue fluid and my daily hawk HP+ pads so no worries there.....

 

Why don't you use Carbotech Bobcats for street and XP10/8 for track??

From Carbotech's FAQ

 

wheres are cheap place to pick up xp12/xp10's to install myself? ;p

 

Mike at Batlground can get them for you. They have good deals going on them. Tell him Matt told you to ask for "The Siegels Super Duper Gay Hat Special"

 

I just ran the XP12'a and 10's in Roebling and they were fine (i dont have ducts) - the braking into turn 1 is at about 130 and there was no problem with them (other that the fact that you need ear plugs when you brake on the street).

 

Thanks Matt, I'll call in today. How hard is brake ducting? Can I remove my fogs temporarily for the day of the event and put it back afterwards? LOL

 

I would say you probally don't need ducting until you get over the 350hp mark. Till then you probally aren't carrying enough speed to overtemp the pads.

Matt

 

Speaking of ducting, why doesn't anyone design a wheel that has a slight angle that pulls air into or out of the wheel? Like a fan?

 

I think there are companys that have tried that before. I'm not sure what kind of effect that would have on aero though

 

Didn't some of the AMG's have that?

 

of the older cars, 300zx wheels were designed with directional holes to scoop air out onto the wheel surface with it's concave nature, 16x8.5 in the rear has plenty angle and width to do all of that. However the end result is not very affective because of the pressure it generated was not enough to move adequate air volume effectively on a race track.

Ducting would be best

 

Besides weight distribution, any reason people tend to go with a slightly more aggressive compound in the front over the rear? Javid said he has been running XP10's all around with no problems.

 

I've actually been thinking of using a more aggressive pad on the back to help with trail braking but most people don't trail brake as much as I do. The car will be easier to drive with a slightly less aggressive compound on the back.

Matt

 

So all it would do would be transfer the bias somewhat towards the rear right?

 

In theory it should, since I haven't done it before I don't want to say yes.

 

FWIW, I'm running XP10 front and XP8 rear. Knowing what I've seen of your car, I have far less horsepower than you.

I put these on when I was planning a trip up to VIR, which has a couple of long straights. I'd gotten the word that my Hawks weren't up to the task.

I spent several sessions on the street trying to heat up the Carbotechs to do something like the bed-in that they call for. I had them on the car for 5-6 weeks before the track. My intention was to scrape off the organic bits in the the rotors before hitting the track.

I probably did an adequate job, but not a great job. Braking from the straights had its flaws, but the brakes were excellent nonetheless. I'll have to try replacing the rotors before I decide whether the "multiple sets of rotors" suggestion will work for me. In the mean time, I'm not swapping pads because I have the Subaru Challenge coming up.

Summary: I'm curious how they'd work with proper bed-in, but these brakes are very impressive once they're warm in any case.
I'd be surprised if you over-stress them at Little Tally.

 

I went ahead and ordered the XP10 front XP8 rear combo. Figured I'd try these out first and see if I need to upgrade later.

 

If you decide you don't like them I made Mike order a set of 12\10s for stock.

 

Those 12/10's are mine

 

Have you called Mike to let him know, I guess he needs to order some more for stock....just like I said...lol