Hey everyone.... Well.... I'm FINALLY ready to put a turbo upgrade for my 2004 WRX wagon together, and I have to say I'm pretty excited. I've been planning this since talking to Scott at Topspeed since last Christmas, and I'm hoping to have the car up at Topspeed getting tuned within the next three weeks. Now, before I jump the gun and put in the final order on my parts, here's what I'm hoping to achieve (If anything I've listed sounds unfeasible, let me know!): -I want this to be a RELIABLE daily driver. I currently have 75,000 miles on the car, and would like to see it to or past the 150,000 mark. -I want the gearbox to last. It shifts great at the moment with no problems. It even slides cleanly into first at low speeds. I do not launch the car, and I am adamant about rev matching when downshifting to reduce shock loads. - I would LIKE to see 250-275 wheel horsepower and a powerband that put a strong emphasis on midrange power, with top end for highway passing being the next most important prerogative. Now... here are the power mods that I currently have: -Titek catted downpipe -Borla XR1 full 3 inch catback -Accesport version 1 -Sti uppipe -An UNINSTALLED VF39 I want to order my final pieces THIS WEEK. -I know I need a Walbro 255 and install kit -I need injectors (questions about this to follow...) -I'll throw on a K&N panel filter -I'm seriously considering putting on a GM boost control solenoid, as I've read good things about using this over the stock BCS. -I MIGHT get a new turbo inlet (probably a "Gimmick" brand)... that really just depends on how my stock one looks once I get the turbo off. And my questions.... The VF39 I have looks good, but I'm wondering if I should go ahead and go with a slightly larger turbo before I start the install, and maybe sell the VF39 later. I've considered a used VF34, but I'm really having a hard time tracking one down. I'm actually seriously considering a new SMALL 16G from forced performance. I wonder if I'll come closest to meeting my power goals with this. Injectors are obviously important, and I'm set on going through Deatschwerks. I'm a little cautious about the size I should order, though. I know 565s would work fine with the VF39, and probably the VF34, but what about the 16G? Should I just go ahead and get the 650s? The one benefit of the 565s is that I could drive around for a week with the VF39 and an OTS map to decide if I really like the turbo before getting tuned, but if I don't like it, there's the possibility I'd need to buy the 650s for a larger turbo anyway.... ugh. :unamused: It's starting to sound like I may as well go for the slightly larger turbo.... Considering my overall goals, is a larger turbo just overkill? Or are the turbos I'm considering so similar in terms of CFM output that it just doesn't really matter? If you've read all of the above, many thanks to you. Any and all input is appreciated. And Scott... if you're out there, feel free to give me your advice. I can even call you if you'd rather I do that. I don't want put something together that's going to be a tuning headache for you. Thanks again, "K. Marx"
Sorry about that! When I was writing I thought that was in my member info, but it's not. It's a 2004 wagon with the stock 2.0 liter. I'll update the original post.
^^ nah he'll be fine. the 16g would be a great turbo, and since installing injectors is such a goddamn PITA I would only try and do it once. the 650s would be good, and whoever tunes it will scale them accordingly. I don't know IDCs for the 550s running a 16g off hand, but it might be close. but yeah they're all pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things
I'd skip the turbo inlet if you're going for a cheap brand, they just lead to installation problems. The Evo3 16G would also be a great choice over the 39, should spool better and make more power.
I just did a big 16g and I am at 272 WHP maybe 280 with good gas. I have an 02 Bugi my tranny can handle this HP for days no prob. I even get decent mileage if I stay out of boost. It spools quick, which is good low end. My mods: STI/TMIC Turbo XS Up Injen Down Pipe 3" bellmouth Stromung cat back Deatschworks 550 and the 255 Walbro (go with the 650 like he says) Deadbolt big 16g Access Port and Dr. Siegels Fine Tuning If there is any chance of installing a new air inlet I would do it, the stock ones are shit. Just make sure it's not a cheap one! I'm not a fan of the balllbearing turbos, but who am I to judge. Regarding hindsite I would do 650 injectors and the 18g. That'll get you right to 300whp and your tranny should handle that just fine. Still very drivable. The key that brings this all together is the tune. After Scotts tune my car drives about 200% better than stock. He will keep you conservative if that's what you want.
Awesome input, guys. Tomorrow morning I'm going to go ahead and call in my injectors and pump so I can (hopefully) get started on that before the week ends. I'm going to dooooo eeeeeet- I'm getting the 650s. I figure they would give me plenty of headroom for any (reasonable) turbo I might consider, and still remain sane enough to be used with a VF39 if I chose to do so. No, I won't be able to test out the VF39 with an OTS map, but once it's done, I may as well go ahead and get the protune anyway. As for the turbo, the jury is still out on that one. I'll admit that I'm still scared of the BIG 16G and 18G. I hear about people running just fine with them, but I also hear about alot of blown trannies and motors on that level. I'm also still not sure about the longevity of the motor... especially with the 18G. I've talked to people who have them and are happy, but I'm not sure about the 150,000+ mile goal. Maybe it's feasible, but this might also be a "can't have your cake and eat it too" deal in a relatively low budget build like mine. Maybe I'm wrong, but the small 16G seems like a good compromise between the VF34 and the "larger smallish" turbos. Spool should be about as good (if not a little better?) than the VF34, its cfm output is pretty close to the big 16G, and it shouldn't be too over the top in terms of affecting longevity. I realize that I'm getting into crystal ball stuff that no one can really answer for certain, and I do apologize for that... I'm just trying to find that logical comprise between power I'll be happy with and reliability I want. It's not easy.
I think it largely depends on how you drive it. If you are revving and dropping the clutch at 5500 rpm, even a stock turbo is enough to kill the tranny. But if you are nice to it, there are people with 300-350 awhp on the stock tranny. Is it possible it could go out? Sure, but it could do that anyway with the VF39 or even the stock turbo. Baby it, don't launch it and go for the 18g
Any of the turbo's you listed will make the power you want...Easily. You do have to worry about your tranny, but if you do NOT launch it, do NOT run the redline, and you change the fluid regularly with Subaru Xtra S you should be okay. I shredded 2nd with a vf39, Personally if 250 is an acceptable goal, I made that on a TD04 and the spool was instant. I went with the Pink injectors I believe are 565's and now am up to a DB 18G clipped still on those injectors with no problems. Get a good turbo inlet so you do not have probs on down the road.
I am making 345? whp on my stock Legacy 5MT and clutch! I ahve a full clutch/flywheel setup waiting to go but just dont see the point since the stock one is holding up. It is all about how you drive the car. You can blow your motor with a VF39 just as fast as a 20G if it isnt tuned properly. Make sure you take it to a good tuner and you should be fine with a 16G
Stock setup vs. 18 g with 650's is essentially irrelevant for the most part. The tranny will hold up until about 350whp easily, as should the engine. If you hot rod it or drive it hard, stock, or otherwise it will most likely break prior to 150k. These cars break mostly due to driver error and abuse. There are guys here running close to 500whp with stock 5mt’s. Don't launch hard don't red line you'll be fine unless your engine has a pre-existing condition. If you want to be sure do a leak down and compressing test prior to the mods so you have a baseline. I also got everything up to speck prior to my build: diff fluids, tranny fluids, coolant flush, oil change, brake line purge, new battery, new tires, new belts, new plugs, the whole friggin maintenance enchilada. Oh and "Get a good turbo inlet so you do not have probs on down the road", if you have the cash do it. That is still on my to do list and I wish it was not. The rubber on the exit side of the turbo inlet is friggin' gummi. It will tear quicker than lingerie, be real careful when you swap turbo’s if you stick with the stock turbo inlet:hsnono:. Oh and shortly after the swap, like next day, straight to your tuner. Kingrex maintained Siegel tuned FTW
Welp... I've completed one big step... I just ordered my 650s, pump, and install kit from Deatschwerks. Now.... still thinking about the turbo. You guys are probably right; the car could get along with an 18G. I still can't help it, though... I'm not completely comfortable with the idea. Of course, it's absurd for me to ask anyone, for certainty, if the car will last with that setup simply because there are so many variables. I have, however, decided that I'm not going to use the VF39. IF I happen to run across a killer dealer on a VF34 this week I might consider it. Otherwise, next week I'm going to order one of two things: -A standard (TD05H) 16G from deadbolt. It's $799 and probably pushing my budget a little, but the "free rebuilds for life" deal gives me some MAJOR peace of mind, as there is always the odd chance something could go wrong with the turbo itself. -An Evo 3 16G from Forced Performance for $749. It would give me more power, but it doesn't have the same kind of warranty. Hmmmmm........ Oh... and about the leakdown test and maintenance issues before doing the install... I'm pretty golden in that regard. Before ANYTHING goes in, I'm doing the leakdown, as well as changing to a range colder spark plugs. Fluids are pretty fresh (Redline 75W90ns was put in the gearbox and 75W90 in the rear diff. 7,000 miles ago), and all belts but the timing belt were done almost as recently. The timing belt is the one thing I am skimping out on for the moment- I'm going to wait another 10,000 miles before doing it. I don't imagine that I'm really taking a chance, though, as that still leaves me well within the belt change interval... right? I'll still be doing it about 20,000 miles earlier than the 105,000 recommended interval since the engine will be under greater stress. At that time I'll go with an STi belt. Am I sounding reasonable?
If it's a good turbo, it shouldn't. It's just one of those things that is nice to know when buying- just in case. In this case the "free rebuild" deal is minor enough that it shouldn't be the deciding factor when I buy... only a minor "plus" to consider. The price difference between the deadbolt and the small 16G at Blouch or FP is minor enough that I would pay extra for it, though.
If the turbo is built correctly, you won't need a rebuild for 100K miles. If your turbo is damaged from something you caused (Which is the case most of the time), deadbolt wont rebuild it for free. I would look for a used 18G. If you find a DB, you can send it to DB for inspection and have the free rebuilds transferrred to you.
Why do they have to? My 18g is a Deadbolt and I'd venture enough to claim that it has been pushed HARDER than most all 18g's. It has 90K miles on it and it still working great and boosting a LOT. On my self modified map it was boosting 28 psi peak at the track. Deadbolt installed a bigger wastegate flapper for me since I was pushing the turbo so hard and he said whatever I was doing maintenance wise to keep on doing it as it was in pristine like new condition. As far as the stock tranny goes....it's luck of the draw. I have the record holding drag pass on the stock tranny and engine and that 5 speed saw just about 500 drag passes with over 40 passes seeing 11.7-11.9's at over 120 mph before it bit the bullet. I think Matt's old bugeye saw the same times on it's 5 speed too and his 'had' the weaker trans. You absolutely can not go wrong with Siegel tuning the car. It will be 100% safe and make all the power it needs to.
Some reasonably priced turbos here too and I have heard good things about them. 1 Year warranty! 18g for about the same as the deadbolt 16g http://www.turbokits.com/wrx_turbo_kits.html
Most of the failed aftermarket bolt on turbos for subarus that I have seen have been from Deadbolt. I've only seen one FP and I think it was ran without oil. Matt
I had both FP18G and DB18G AND there is NO comparison. FP sucks it was removed within a month for the DB and I am very happy with it.
I have NEVER seen a good turbo from turbokits.com. I think they're all made in Mexico or something. I've seen a few that were uninstallable... Siegel
well I can go off of nothing but having it dynoed. I went from a VF39/meth and made 305/314, slapped on the FP18G and made 310/279...Took it off and bought the high dollar DB18G red coatin, PnP, clipping, exhast coating the whole 9 yards and put down 340/318. I can only attribute it to the balancing and the fact that the wastegate did not completely cover the opening...kinda off center.
I talked to you over the phone for a bit earlier today Scott, and just wanted to say thanks for all of the advice and information you were willing to share. I'm looking forward to getting tuned in the coming weeks. Thanks to everyone else as well... It's nice to get some different opinions from everyone. This being said, after talking to Scott and considering my overall budget, I've decided not to write off my VF39 after all. HOWEVER, I'm still considering a couple more options. Scott, I've PMed you, as there's a possible turbo option I'm considering that I would like to you to take a glance at if you get time. Thanks to all, "K. Marx"
If you're gonna spend $700+ for the turbo at least go with the big16g. It will get you to your WHP goal, it spools fast, very smooth and drivable, just a great all around turbo. Then of course you will want the 18g but after spending $700+ you will continue to drive the big16 and still be satisfied I went with DB because I got a good deal on a used one. So far so good! Glad you got the 650's!
"I've decided not to write off my VF39 after all." With budget in mind I would give the VF39 a shot! What the hell you have it already! Can't wait to see what kind of power you can produce.
Yeahhhhhh.... It looks like we might be in the same boat on this one. I have found a decent deal on a used Deadbolt turbo, and depending on what the the seller says when he gets back to me, I may end up trying it. Otherwise, I follow your logic. Hell, I've got the VF39 already, why not try it? Once I get it tuned, I'll see if I can post up some dyno results. Thanks again for the (extremely helpful) advice.
If you can wait a few weeks I will be back in Atlanta driving my buddies car that I built for him. It's the perfect 'budget' build WRX. Has VF39, upgraded TMIC, APS Turbo inlet, GM boost solenoid, uppipe and 3" bellmouth downpipe, and my old loud Blitz Nur Spec catback. We are installing a meth kit this weekend and then Siegel is gonna tune it. Doug tuned the pump goes on it with a few leaks and a crappy turbo inlet that was SMALL and still made 290 hp and 262 tq.
Pure crap. Plus Topspeed or Batlground can probable beat most of those prices. Those Garrett turbos are insanely high by like $400-500.
I'd actually be pretty interested in seeing that. I've heard so many conflicting reports from people who have VF39 upgraded WRXs; some absolutely love it, and others don't seem to like it and even go so far as to reinstall their TD04s. I'd like to see a well set up and tuned example. Now that I think about it, I've never actually been in ANY WRX with an upgraded turbo. That being said, I did go ahead and bite the bullet... I purchased a used, ceramic coated, and "monster ported" one of these: http://www.boostplanet.com/product2.htm The owner says the turbo has never failed, but he had it rebuilt for good measure because he had an oiling problem in his motor and spun a bearing. He did a return to stock after the incident, and the turbo has not been reinstalled since the rebuild. It is kind of like I'm buying a new turbo. The seller is sending it straight back to Deadbolt so they can put the paperwork in my name for the whole "free rebuild" thing. (Let's hope I never have to use it.) I'm obviously not going to make 18G or big 16G power with this thing, but it will probably help me meet my fairly conservative goals with ease. Hopefully I can get slightly better spool and a little more power with this compared to the VF39. We'll see. The only parts I have left to get (that I know of) are a GM BCS and possibly the aforementioned turbo inlet. Now I'm wondering.... once I get all of this assembled, how am I going to get it to Topspeed for the tune? It's about 40 miles away, and there are no Cobb OTS maps for this setup. Will I have to get a flatbed to tow it up there? I wonder if there are any "limp" maps that someone at Topspeed could send me just to get me there? I also wonder if I could load a VF39 map just to make sure that the car will in fact start up and run when I'm finished. Ugh. One step at a time, I guess.
VERY carefully. Or just do the GM boost in the parking lot when you get there. All I know is that I had to reduce my wategate duty cycles like 40% when I installed mine. Whatever map will be fine as long as you stay out of the boost completely on the way there...just keep your foot out of it.
see if they can get you a map with the injector scaling a little bit closer, and just stay out of the gas the way there. wouldn't want to wash down the cylinder walls due to excess fuel
WHAT? You bought a used 16g for about $700....is that right? Really??? Please call S Siegel for next step! Quick!
Not sure if I'm following you.... did I make a big mistake by going with the 16G? You're not far off on the price I ended up paying, but with porting and coating, it was about 1100 new, so I figured it wasn't too bad a deal since it had just been rebuilt. Bad idea?
Call Siegel when you are ready. He will most likely tell you email me all of your mods and he will provide you will a limp map to get to Topspeed. Just stay out of boost though.
Hey everyone.... I've been kind of slammed over the past month or so since I started back to work (I teach, so August equals the end of my fun life in general), but I was just taking it easy this afternoon when I ran back across this thread I started awhile back. Since I had nothing better to do, I figured why not update it? I did end up installing a DB TD05h 16G that has been ported and coated on the exhaust side. Paired with DW 650 injectors, an STi topmount, GMS turbo inlet and aftermaf, aftermarket BCS, and a few other small items, "Dr. Siegel" managed to get the following: Obviously the upper lines are from the final run. I know the dyno at Topspeed might be a little more numbers friendly than some others, but still pretty good numbers, right? Scott was AWESOME to work with. If you are reading this Scott, thanks again. (Not sure if you remember me or the car, as you tuned it back in August. It was an 04 WRX wagon.) I'd have to give the tune a solid A. The car doesn't seem to hit quite as hard as it did the day I brought it home from the tune, but I'm sure this probably due to me getting used to it. I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with an 18G, but the fast spool and strong midrange are exactly what I was looking for to use in my daily driving routine. It's tempting to add more, but I think I'm done with the engine on this thing. When or if it ever goes, I'll go ahead and step up to an STi swap and a larger turbo. I'm finally starting to look into some suspension upgrades, as all I have now are Brembo blanks up front with stock calipers and Hawk pads. Thanks again for everyone's advice, and thanks again to Scott for his hard work and the great tune. The car is a blast to drive.
Numbers are pretty irrelevant as long as you are happy with the car An 18g is an easy upgrade if you ever decide to go with a different turbo!
Yeah, now that you have all the core components, going bigger wont be to bad...Just swap out the turbo and get Siegel to touch up the tune Looking forward to hearing about your 18G soon!
Wow nice numbers!! You got a few more ponies than me. 290-300 is very streetable and you have a nice quick spooling turbo. ENJOY!