springs or sways

looking for my first suspension mod before i go back to the mountains, which first?
set of 24mm sway bars or swift springs?

thanks in advance

 

neither... get better tires.


then get the springs/coilovers, and swaybars.

 

not sure.. both make a big difference.. on my bugeye I did springs 1st, then sways.. STI springs 1st, sways I left stock.

 

front sways give you more grip overall and better initial turn in.

rear helps with the oversteer.

you need to upgrade both at the same time to get its max effect.

dont waste money on springs save some $$ and get some proven coilover set up...

but then again if you dont track it reg. then springs would be ok

 

^^ If I had to do it over, I agree... Coilovers.. The springs I got for my bugeye(Whiteline) and the ones I got for the STI(RCE yellows).. KILLED the ride for daily driving. The performance increase is good, really nice in the twistys, but run over a pebble and hear the CRASH!!! If I could do it over, I'd stay stock until I could save up for a nice set of coils. I will never buy just springs again.

 

Ride quality is greatly dependent on SHOCKS; good quality dampers can make even very high spring rates tolerable on the street.

There is nothing special about coilovers, they are just dampers (and not always very good ones at that) that allow height adjustment. If you do buy springs, you need better shocks to handle the increased spring rate. If you get just sways, you can get away without new shocks, but you will still be under-damped in coners when the sways put extra load on the outside wheel. If you even think about coilovers, do some research, many people spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on a coilover setup that will not handle as well as a simple strut (shock) and spring combo.

That said, it is always a good idea to get a bigger front sway; that helps increase front grip and reduce body roll. Anyone who says that a bigger front bar increases understeer has no experience with macstrut suspensions, and they should be ignored. A bigger rear bar will also reduce body roll and reduce rear grip, therby increasing oversteer.

Tires are the most important thing for handling; if you are still on stock tires then all the above advice is useless.

I would do things in this order:
1. Get better tires - an extra set of wheels with your performance tires is even better.
2. Get sways - no matter what springs/shocks/coilovers you get you will want bigger sways
3. Do a LOT of research and decide what you want to do with your car before getting ANY springs, shocks or coilovers.

Remember, coilovers are NOT a magic recipe for handling wonderfullness.

 

^^ Guess I should have clarified... but yes, I meant buying a quality/proven set for your needs... The struts you mention are really $$$ (Ohlins etc)... This conversation is really over my head, so I'll let others more in the know chime in. All I'm trying to say is, springs only and STOCK struts(STI or WRX) is a bad idea. And a lot of people try to go the cheap route and just do springs/stock struts to get that look, and don't realize its gonna ride like shit. I did it on the WRX and upgraded to KYB's and that rode bad, then I figured stock STI struts were decent enought and was wrong again. After years of suspension mistakes, I've determined a good looking drop and performance = big cash. If you don't have the money to do it correctly... leave it stock, or suffer kidney damage as I have. Just my .02

 

IMO, upgrade springs on stock struts is a waste of money and doesnt give you the peformance to warrant the price. WRX springs are rated at 163lbs in the front and 129 in the back. Most upgrade springs are ~20-40lbs stiffer per corner, stock STi springs are rated at 224/195lbs. STi upgrade springs are in the same range of 20-40lbs stiffer. Most coilovers start at over the double spring stiffness.

Good budget suspension upgrade for a WRX, get yourself some 04 STi takeoffs from a friend. And then top them off with some uprated STi upgrade springs, like Prodrive Reds, Espelir AGT, Swift R-spec, JDM Pinks, etc. The ride will be firm but STi struts ride better with stiffer springs than with the softer stock springs. It's firm but not overly harsh like a lot of coilovers.

You should be able to find both for around $400 total, add in a good alignment and you're still at half the price of coils with 80-90% of the stiffness and handling improvement and 100% less adjustability. Like subinoobi said, think about what you want out of the suspension. I was very happy with this setup on stock sways for anything other than extremely tight quick turns but I also never tracked the car.

 

I've never really subscribed to the "wait and get coilovers" school of thought unless your car is seeing any sort of real track duty. I mean, springs are around 200 bucks (less if you get lightly used ones), while coilovers (decent ones) are at least 1200-1500....unless you get the megans, which are still around 1000. If you're just dailying the car then they might just be overkill. And anyway, with springs you can always add adjustable struts later on down the road and have, essentially, a "poor man's coilover." The difference on the street and even in spirited driving wouldn't be terribly noticeable from a full on coilover setup.

In any case, springs, even on the stock struts, would probably be fine for a daily, IF you do your research and get the right ones; avoid drastic drops combined with soft rates. Eibach pro-kits are damn decent, from what I hear and quite affordable. The spring stiffness will kill your ride a little, but coilovers aren't exactly cushy either, really. Springs with a mild drop and and a 30lb increase in rate would probably do a lot for the car. A 1.0" drop is plenty, really.

That said, for the money you're apparently looking to cough up right now (2-300 bucks, I guess), sways will probably be your best value in a handling upgrade.

 

camber caster adjustments

 

IMO full coilovers with slightly higher spring rates and pillowball camber plates and a rear sway bar is all the Impreza body style needs. a bigger front bar increases understeer.

 

im getting some 25mm adjustable perrin sways and endlinks for 400 used on nasioc

thanks for the help guys

 

This is TOTALLY untrue for subaru's strut suspension, here is a good explanation:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/26301-siegel-racing-topspeed-dissertation-suspension.html

And yes, as stated above, getting stiffer springs on stock shocks is not a really good idea. However, there are options like tokico and koni that cost way less than ohlins and still work very well.

 

That sounds like a good start.

 

and he's going off a stock STi, bigger bars to begin with. to me the stock WRX handles much like a front wheel drive, you brake hard in a straight line, turn, hammer the throttle just before the apex due to lag. I've driven many FF, FR, cars, and the stock WRX falls more under the FF of driving style.

I personally like in all my cars, high dampening, medium spring rates and small: IE stock bars. I tried stock bars with more dampening and found the car still had a little understeer, and slightly larger rear bar on the softest setting makes the car rotate so much better, so I tried adding a front bar and understeer came back. so i'm running stock front bar, Perrin rear bar on softest, and Stance coilovers with 8K front springs and 6K rear springs, the car is so neutral with 1.75 neg front camber and 1.5 neg rear camber with tire pressures at 40psi cold.

 

That is 100% False.

A properly setup front bar increases front grip by keeping the car in the meat of the camber curve.

I would buy a sways and get a good alignment from GTE

Also get the big sways the little ones are a waste of money.

 

Dont do it...buy the big whitelines

 

what don't you get from IMO?

 

I wouldn't say that the WRX drives like a FWD car, it still basically drives like a STI you just have to baby it a little coming off the corner or you will get some inside wheel spin. Also I have never driven a awd car that only likes to brake in a straight line. If you want to go fast in a AWD car you better learn how to trail brake.

Now onto setup...what kind of tires are you running because thats not enough front camber for a good tire.

 

Hankook RS-2 and yes that's enough camber for a proper setup with enough dampening and spring rate, not replying on a huge lever of a sway bar. sway bars are a band-aid for soft springs and weak dampening.

 

Hmm

 

I disagree strongly with your opinion

 

ok, I tried the sways, springs on factory style struts, got the car handling pretty well, with a LOT of camber, almost 4 degrees. when I switched to coilovers, I had to rethink everything, I actually went down on the bar sizes, back to the stock front bar and a 22mm rear. the 24mm bars f&r were way too much with the increase in dampening and higher spring rate.

 

Suspension setup is mostly about personal preference so I'm not going to tell you what to run but I can tell you from experience that your setup is probably not going to be fast on track. I think I've tried damn near every setup you can possibly thing of on my track car and the key to going fast in a Subaru is keeping the front tires in the good part of the camber curve. The start losing camber with a quickness when you are on soft springs or bars or worse both.

Again you can do what ever you want but on a good street tire you need a minimum of 2.4 degrees of camber in the front .

Swaybars may be a band aid on a car with a good camber curve but on a Subaru thats just not the case.

I wish you the best of luck if you are planning on tracking your car with that setup, if you ever need help with your setup Ill be happy to help you, unlike most of the guys you find on those other Subaru forums I've actually put 25,000 track miles on my personal Subaru. So I have actual experience and not just I read it on the internet experience.

Matt

 

Nevermind, seems Matt is taking care of the explanation.

 

You shouldn't have to run 4 degrees unless you are on a full race tire.

I've ran with both stock struts and with RCE T2 Coilovers that I'm on now and even with the stiff spring rates the car still works better with the bars. Have you ever taken tire temps across the tires with a probe to see how well you are working the tire. If you get a probe you can check the outside middle and inside of the tire and depending on how far the temp spread is you can see if you are running to much or not enough camber.

It helps to have data acquisition available as well, that way you can make sure that you are consistent with you turn in, braking and throttle application, its hard to dial a car in unless you can turn consistent laps.

 

I'm not arguing with you, if you have something that works for you, that's cool. I've found something that works for me. I'm just a strong advocate for coilovers and not springs on struts, yes fat sways do help with that kind of setup. driving style has a lot to do with setup. it's an experiment for each person. I've tried lots of springs and strut setups before going to coilovers. it's more cash layout in the beginning but it's well worth it versus springs on stock struts.

 

I'm not arguing for springs with struts I'm just saying the car would be better with big sways period doesn't matter if he does coilovers or stays stock springs and shocks. The bottom line is that a big bar combo keeps the wheel and tire where it needs to be in the camber curve and thats just a fact.

 

I run RCE yellows on the stock STI struts with Group N strut mounts and also with the Whiteline 24 mm bars front and rear. I just added the sways a few weeks ago. So far I am loving this setup. I do have to say that the sways made a much larger difference to the cars handling than the springs. The springs did a good job of removing the bobble head that the stock STI spring strut combo is famous for. I agree that the ride could be better but it is not worth the $1500-$2000 for me to get Ohlins or full on coilovers.

Also another comment about the ride of the STI when using aftermarket springs and stock struts. Your tire choice has more to do with the ride than anything. On the stock potenzas the ride was quite harsh. I moved to the falken fk-452s and the ride improved substantially. This, of course, comes with a decrease in grip but my thought on this is that you do not need a full on super high performance for daily driving. You need a tire that offers good performance and good ride quality/performance in the rain. Hence my tire choice. If I did not drive my car everyday I would have a more aggressive tire and then I would probably look for a better strut/spring combo.

As it is aftermarket springs on the stock sti struts works just fine for me.

 

Another thing to keep in mind, is with BIG sways and STIFF springs, you need STIFF sidewalls. Your car will bounce and handle like crap if it's on a soft tire.

 

Keep in mind, the stock STi struts are beefier than wrx struts and therefore can handle higher spring rates that the wrx stockers cannot.

 

Yep.

 

for the most part iv heard that sways are the best bang for the buck as a first suspension mod

 

yea i went with sways and just got some dunlop sp sport maxx's
cant wait to get rid of these re92's

 

STI maybe, but WRX you def. need to dump those rims and tires, especially on the older models..