Well I went to a Subaru meet in Greenville, SC this weekend and met a guy with a built motor. Juanmedina has a 06/07 WRX with Forged pistons and built heads. Car ran nice and didn't sound loud at all but I did notice one thing. When he first cranks up the car it shakes like CRAZY! Like the engine mounts are shot but they aren't. Once the idle stabilizes it purrs and idles like stock and doesn't shake a bit. So I'm asking does forged pistons make the engine do that or is his idle not quite optimized and needs smoothing out? He is still on a rough break in tune and is running on E-85.
I rode in someone's car with forged pistons and it was kind of like that until the engine got warm. I thought the car was broken.
That what I was thinking. He went with simple dropins. Made a big stink on Nasioc when the engine wasn't breaking in but he was breaking in on E85 which is a no no. Switch to 93 octane and the rings started sealing.
Some motors I've seen are like that, the last two Subaru motors that I have seen leave Batlground were not. They both started up very quietly and ran smooth. Also that is total bullshit that you can't break a motor in on E85, if anything it would be easier to break it in on E85 because it has less lubrication properties. Don't believe everything you read on the net.
I disagree with you there Matt. Rings need to get hot to expand and seal. HomemadeWRX (Micah), Maxwell Power, Ron @ Raw Performance and Topspeed all don't recommend doing that purely because it runs much cooler than 93 would. It can be done but not recommended unless you have the breakin tune just right to create the needed heat. But that's another discussion.
Let me see if I can find a nice way to put this that won't offend anyone. There is so much more to this than simply saying you cant do that because thats honestly fucking ridiculous. From my 16th birthday till I was close to 22 I spent almost every weekend at the dragstrip and a lot of my friends ran Alcohol cars. None of them broke them in on gasoline. Mind you I have heard of people doing it but not many. If you were to keep everything the same and just adjust the fueling so that it would run on E85 then it would run really cold. However if you were to adjust things correctly then you would also be advancing the timing a lot more therefore giving the fuel in the cylinder a longer burn time, therefore transferring more heat into the cylinder walls and rings. I assume that everyone here knows that E85 is higher octane and therefore actually burns slower therefore giving the flame front more time to travel down the cylinder, therefore allowing you to run more timing and lighting the mixture earlier. You can't simply just say you can't do that because you most certainly can. Thats part of the reason I don't post on Nasioc anymore, to many people think these cars are mythical beast unlike any other automobile on the planet and none of the rules seem to apply. Also a couple of things to think about The auto ignition point for gasoline is 536 degrees The auto ignition point for Ethanol is 725 degrees If its better to seat the rings with hotter fuel why not just run 83 octane
Its really all totally related, if he had told his engine builder what kind of setup he is running then the engine builder should have set up the Piston to Wall Clearance and the Ring Gap and Type accordingly. Its really neccesary to your original topic, but if you want to just go sling some parts in a block and call it built then just do that if you want to do it right then take the time to learn about expansion rates of pistons, ring gaps, piston to wall clearance, compression rate, Temperature of combustion, etc... Theres a lot more to this stuff than most people think and I know very few tuners that even really know enough about it. Most guys that do know about this stuff don't go into detail about it because most people don't get it and or don't care. Judging by your "Okay Thanks have a nice day post you fall into that category or maybe you just don't understand how important this stuff really is. Honestly if you just want to make 400 to 500hp throw some drop ins, in it and call it a day, if you want more than that you better start educating yourself and you can skip most of the other Subaru forums, go by some books on engine building, tuning etc.... Most of those books are going to be about V8s but everything directly relates.
Matt please go back and read my first post man. I was simply asking why in the world was his engine shaking so bad. He flat out ghetto built (used drop ins, 3 seperate unrelated installers, and flat out BLASTED Topspeed for something they didn't do wrong) that engine which is why Topspeed is not taking responsibility for tuning that car. But again my original question was could the shaking be tuning related or a matter of unbalanced parts/poor build. Not breaking in an engine on E85.
Go back and reread your post again, dont you think the fact that he used drop ins might be important to include. Shitty piston to wall clearance is probably what is causing it to sound like shit on start up...maybe. If you have someone who knows what they are doing build it, then no you probably won't have that problem. Last I heard you wanted Maxwell Power to build your motor...if thats the case then let them build it and stop worrying about it. But then I've heard you were getting an RR1 and you have asked me about my uncles shop to.
Yes I should have included a few more details but your response was not worded nicely. No need for cursing and all that. I've talked with Maxwell and they are likely doing my motor. Your uncle himself told me he has done very few Subaru's and has mostly done domestics so I feel the experience of Maxwell surpasses that. Topspeed's quotes were too high for me and Maxwell has done far more Subaru engines and they all do their stuff themselves and I like that. Plus they balance and blueprint them. They are nearly OCD with their builds and that is a good thing. I've never once said I was going to get a RR1. I have said I'd 'like' one but the price of a RR1 is crazy for a 450-500 hp build.
Coolrex have you made a decision as to the pistons you plan to use and the alloy of those pistons? While I am sure that Maxwell knows what they are doing, part of what makes the engine rough on startup is what Matt was describing...clearances. Some alloys can run tighter clearances than others. For instance, stock pistons in the Sti are able to run VERY tight clearances. Thus, no noise. Go to the next stage and you have to run a little looser clearances than factory. Go a step beyond that and things can be noisy on start up and until the motor warms up to operating temperature and until the pistons themselves expand from being heated. This can cause things to be a bit noisy when first starting the car. BUT those noisier pistons are also usually the stronger ones like the Mahle pro series. Due to the looser clearances they will wear a bit faster and make a bit more noise on start up.
I am 100% sure I'm going to run 2618 alloy. I've seen several with those alloys run smooth as butter. Matter of fact Doug commented that his is probably the smoothest he has seen yet. That was what I wanted to know.....was the wobbling (there was very little noise btw but again I'm deaf) normal for forged pistons. Like Matt said though they were drop ins and that may have a LOT to do with it. If I go with Maxwell they will be using pistons that purely designed for Ej257 mated with Ej205 heads.
If you are looking for someone to sugar coat stuff then you better call Siegel, I don't do that for anyone except my wife. I'm sure Maxwell does a fine job, I've talked to them about heads before. Unless something has changed my Uncle Balances and Blueprints his motors upon request just like every other Engine Shop on the planet.
Out of the thousands of motors he has built, they are majority domestics, I will agree with you on that. But, Mr Ball has about 6 Subaru motors up at his shop right now and usually has 2-10 at any given time. yeah, maybe he does 12 to 1 Domestic vs Subaru motors but it isn't rocket science or some secret ninja code to build a subaru motor. I have seen how anal he is with his motor builds and I would not hesitate for a second to let him build any part of any motor I have regardless of make. He has been in the business for a long time and has built plenty of HIGH HP motors.
What in the world is that supposed to mean? Siegel has never sugar coated anything when I talked to him. He speaks the truth and that's it.
Yeah my bad.....I get the numbers all mixed up. I know I'm not going with the ones that LiquidForce had after what happened to his.
Still doesn't come close to what Maxwell has done. I don't doubt the man at all but I'm spending a lot of dough and I want it done right. Matt himself has told me (and I still have that PM) this..."My uncle does great work and we 'think' we have all the snags figured out on the Subaru engine. Give him a call." I'm sorry but 'thinking' isn't gonna cut it. I asked Matt's uncle about that and he himself told me that Subaru engine are different than domestics. That they are not as forgiving and you have to make sure that the specs are right because they have to be right or it'll have issues. I asked why they were so finicky and he told me that due to the boxer design the pistons don't travel quite the same therefore need to be tighter. Maxwell builds engines for airplanes.....they can't afford for anything to go wrong with them. And for the price he quoted me, it's going to be hard to beat that.....Decker at Topspeed told me himself that and that he was giving me some aggressive prices.
I think the biggest thing with Maxwell being able to give me such good prices is that they have everything in house and they don't have to outsource anything. The fact that everything is done in one place is something I like a lot.
I thought liquidforce was very happy with his last engine. Didn't he say he got something like 60-70k miles? on a built motor making 500whp? I'd be happy with that Can someone please elaborate on this? I wouldn't think this would matter based on inline / boxer / V design. The crank turns the pistons, the pistons hit TDC and BDC over and over. I understand the balance may be a little different since the opposing forces may be different per each motor, but how is it 'the pistons don't travel quite the same therefore need to be tighter'? ha - I bet if Beth were reading this she would beg to differ
Replies in bold above. Fact is Matt totally went off the tangent in this thread. I'm researching and trying to grasp a complete understanding. Hence why I'm traveling hours to meet up with various built motor guys and understand their setups and take a ride in their cars. That way I know what to expect and what needs to be understood. Juan's car was a perfect example of what can happen if I try to build the engine myself cheaply and not knowing all the details going in which is why I'm likely to let someone build the shortblock. However his engine seems to be okay but needs the idle tuning ironed out. It is not quite optimized yet so I'd be interested in seeing how much it smooths out when he gets Cam to tune it out. Headwork doesn't bother me a bit.....I've got that down
I love it when people take a simple post and twist it all out of context. Personally I don't care what you do, I don't care if you have Topspeed do it or Maxwell or the Jolly Green Giant. The man knows how to build a motor plain and simple, and when I said I think we worked out all the bugs on my car, it was a joke, the only motor we had problems with were mine and that was because he got bad info from me.
Its only a tangent because its not what you wanted to hear, the bottom line is that everything is important if you want a quiet bottom end....not just piston type. If you are going to have Maxwell build it and you trust them then why does it matter what other peoples setups are like, I ask my builder what I need to use. Why bother driving all over the place and riding with people, what I you trying to determine... Some drop in piston motors are fine, I'm sure Dougs 08 will be awesome....but Dougs not a moron so thats probably why. I'm sure if the tolerances were to great he wouldn't have put them in. You have a Serdi machine? Not slamming you I just don't understand your logic.... If I was going to have a company like Maxwell build my motor I would ask them what they recommend and do exactly that I wouldn't even bother with riding around in other peoples cars.
Ding Ding Ding.... winnerzz I checked mine and they were perfect with the drop ins... Like I have always said drop ins work well but you have a 50/50 chance of that happening.
Its not the heat... its the fact that your running a ton more fuel through the motor, which leaves a higher chance of washing the cylinders down and f'ing your ring seal in a fresh motor. Now that doesn't mean it can't be done... with proper tuning and a carefull person behind the wheel on breakin it should be "fine". But honestly why take the risk when you could just breakin the motor on pumpgas and switch later.
It's not a matter of that I didn't hear what I want to hear Matt. It's your attitude towards answering things. All you simply had to do was give a simple answer. Your attitude reflects a lot on your business. It's because I'm trying to make a decision on do I want a fast spooling turbo....hence small turbos with built motors. Or do I want a top end MONSTER.....hence the fully built engine GT40R car I rode in. Or do I want a little of both worlds (hence Dougs car and to make the results a little more accurate the hybrid I actually drove with same setup as Doug's). It definately matters because unlike you I don't want to blow tons of money on something I won't be happy with. Yep have all the access to one I want. It's a Serdi 2.0. He said he will let me use it all I want and will help me with it. I just have to do my homework and make sure the specs are all right. Dunno what to say man......nothing wrong with a guy checking out various setups to make sure 100% before he spends money that he will like what he is getting. I don't fly blindly into something when it comes up to spending 5 grand on a setup. It's financially stupid for 'me' to just fall into something blindly when you don't have the odds with you that it's gonna work. Unlike others my car is NOT my 100% priority. It's gonna get done once and get done right the first time around.
Then why are you making such a stink then? I asked a simple question and you know what? I got the simple answer via a text and also calmnothing answered simply that he has seen it before. You brought up topics (my decisions on engine) that are totally unrelated to my original question. I was actually asking for Juan himself because we were discussing what the issue may be with that horrible initial wobble. Funny thing is though I haven't seen the first Subaru from your uncle's shop do anything impressive. Maybe everyone is quiet and I certainly can respect that. Your brother's car was supposed to be the NASTY and it was for a few days but where is it? I understand a head gasket issue.....simple fix that never happened and got sold off. So there is no concrete factual data out there making the potential customer (me) comfortable. Because of that I don't want to take the risk. That is my decision and because I made that decision doesn't mean that your uncle's shop sucks as I don't doubt the mans abilities......it just that I don't feel comfortable not knowing 100% that he knows what my engine needs.
I didn't bring up anything that wasn't related to the wobble, there could be ten different things, but you want to get deffensive and pissed off I'm not sure how much more clear I can make this but I don't care where you get your motor built, I don't get a thing from my uncle other than a thanks when I send someone to him and thats all I expect. As far as my brothers car goes, that headgasket issue was fixed two weeks after it happened it made 550whp on the dyno after that. He got tired of dumping money into the Subaru and has been putting money away to build the motor in the vette. The motor out of his car is still sitting in my basement ready to go in a car, I don't have the time or money right now to do it the way I want to.
I only wish you could see me sitting here laughing, if you think this has me bent you are sadly mistaken.