I've been following this and was curious what some other thoughts were on the subject. For those of you who haven't heard a thing about this, here's a brief overview from the NYTimes. If you choose to reply, please refrain from derogatory/racial comments. http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/park51/index.html?inline=nyt-org ----------------------------- Currently, I have thoughts for both pro and con but ultimately am inconclusive thus far on what the best way to approach this.
I personally think that is untactful for them to do this. 9/11 was a direct result of Muslim jihad threats and to put a Muslim mosque at the site of an attack from the Muslim jihad is just not smart. Naturally people are gonna get upset.
There is no way thay can that this mosque get built. I just think it would be a huge slap in the face to all the familes that lost peopls in the 911 terrorist attack.... Along with all Americans and our soldiers that are in the desert. I do not have a problem with a mosque being built I just belive groun zero is the wrong site for it. Just my thoughts
I have lost a few friends that worked in the towers because of the incidents of that day. So my opinion is harsh.
If you really believe in the constituion then freedom of (and in my case from) religion is one of the cornerstones of this country. While I think it is in bad taste, it is a protected right. It is also 2 blocks away so it is not exactly ground zero and technically it is not a mosque either.
it already is essentially being built, all the roadblocks have been removed. all thats left is to actually build it. and as Mike said, if you love this country you wouldn't fight their right to build it. i do agree, it is bad taste. but then again, i can almost 100% assure you the soon to be members of this mosque are not Jihadists. I also cannot stand for the life of me how everyone automatically prejudices all muslims as jihadists. thats like saying all jews deserve to die, or all people with brains are insane. think before you speak.
This is a sticky situation. I believe that the imam is making a really flawed decision to try and do this - many people will rightfully get upset at this. I think it is disrespectful and insensitive for someone to build a mosque near the WTC. That being said I think the imam has every right under the letter of the law to do this if he so chooses. This is America, and the freedoms afforded to us are not always used in ways everyone agrees with - it just comes with the territory. Ultimately the imam claims for this to be a step of healing, but if he cannot see the damage he is doing to Western/Islamic relations with this stunt then he is an idiot.
They are all going to Hell regardless because of their beliefs. And before someone says anything that's "MY" belief and I stand by it.
I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all his noodley appendages. And before someone says anything that's "MY" belief and I stand by it. Isn't this a great country? We both can have absurd beliefs and still function as a society.
well it is their belief that you will essentially do the same, so look you have a lot in common. and since all religions can legitimately trace their roots to the same core values, what difference does it make. but this is the reason there will never be peace in the middle east. or anywhere for that matter. because everyone is right, and everyone else isnt. and i dont know what religious belief you follow, but if you say its christian you have some research to do. God forgives everyone, for everything.
Not getting into a religious battle here but for starters... I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." John 3:3 You may be forgiven but you won't go to heaven unless you accept Jesus in your life. That's a FACT. Now I know for a fact I'm not the person to preach this due to my past and such but a new page has been flipped. I am human and I've done some horrible things......we all have. Things are gonna change here from my perspective....we all have to start somewhere.
I have a friends that are muslims so I under stand what your saying about all muslims are not jihadists.... I just don't think as Americans we should be ok with this i'm sorry.... And like I said in my first post I do not have a issue with a mosque being built I just think it's the wrong location....
cool rex, why can't there be more than one heaven? huh? and josh, we as americans shouldn't tolerate? that IS EXACTLY what is wrong with america, no one tolerates anything and we are the most conservative country on the planet. sorry people with narrow minds fucking disappoint me.
LOL, that's a FACT? Really? So you have personally seen this heaven and been there? Here comes the religious battle.
and for the record i am by NO MEANS challenging your beliefs coolrex, if anything i am glad to see someone that has something to stand for. however, i cannot and will not accept the fact that you are blind and intolerable of others when your so-called belief preaches tolerance.
I never said I was blind and intolerable of others. We are all simply here for a short time. Where you end up is ultimately YOUR decision. Meanwhile we all should learn to get along and cope as a unit. You are totally misinterpreting what I was trying to say. Although I can see how....the internet is good at misleading.
It is probably a bad idea to put any muslim affiliated building that close to ground zero; however, if we all want to continue to pretend we are the most open-minded/just country in the world, we should probably allow it; even if it will ultimately be in poor taste relative to the mass majority's opinion. Now if the muslim group in question wanted to be smart, the imam would build and then immediately develop some programs that 100% supported an outreach program to those affected by the events of 9/11. You can't pretend that middle America doesn't think being a muslim means you might be a jihadist. Imagine if you or I went to the Middle East flashing your US Passport- the assumption would be we are muslim hating warmongerers. Here's an interesting twist, I have a good friend who belongs to Church of the Latter Day Saints.... so be honest how many of you immediately thought oh yeah... those are the polygamists? Fact is only an incredibly small portion of Mormons practice polygamy and their practice/form of religion is NOT affiliated with the Latter Day Saints in anyway. His family is one of the nicest you will ever meet, but we agree not to discuss religion. Fact is he is an important part of the American melting pot, as are all muslims, the vast majority of which are not in anyway interested in jihad.
I have "I'm Canadian" t-shirts in multiple colors for international travel. Only people in the restaurant business hate Canadians
It is unlawful to actually tell them not to build it because it's religion related.If people of NY don't want it there tho, I agree, don't build it. It will just bring problems are chaos to the city. So does Islamic religion. God forgives every sin for everyone. We also believe that there is hell and heaven. If you go to hell, you will eventually go to heaven after paying for your sins in hell. And I HATE HATE HATE when people mix these terrorist with Islamic religion. Most of those terrorist never even read the Qur'an, yet to call them self muslims. And if you are into religiong, read the Islamic Quran, and the Christian Bible, they talk about SAME EXACT things. And what belief is that exactly? Because I know that's not Christian beliefs, or any religion that I know off of. Typical CoolRex, speaking straight out of his ass.
So much I could write, so much I WANT to write, then it strikes me that we have become so polarized in our thinking that nothing I could contribute would sway either side...wait, didn't Conan tell us not to be jaded...damnit...
I don't think that it has failed to be political simply due to the fact that this is more of a political religious matter. It's political in that it deals with our nation and it's laws. It's religious in that the topic at hand concerns Islam and Mosques. One thing to note: Governmental Politics and religion go hand in hand....read your history books. Every culture since the dawn of time has had some sort of diety and/or religion closely associated with its government/political entity. You just can't escape it. Everybody, whether they want to admit it or not, has a religion. Religion is defined as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. No matter what you think or would like to say otherwise, each of use lives by our religion. Some turn to an established "religion" or faith. Others let themselves, or material items, or pleasure, etc. be their "religion". Now then, to the matter at hand. By the laws of our land they have every right to build whatever worship center they want on whatever land they want. IF they had the funds/ability to build AT ground zero, that's their "God-given" right. Is this wise? Definitely not. Does this cause a stir and outrage? It sure does. Is it a blow to our "national pride"? Yup, sure is! However, as has been pointed out, the "believers" that are building this most likely have no ties to the extremist groups. Many are here b/c they love the freedoms our nation provides them....such as the freedom to have a "religious gathering" wherever you want... ...just my $.02.
As a Marine with lots of combat time in the "suck" i lost alot of good friends and Fellow marines.If anyone has watched miniseries Generation Kill, in episode 2, "The Cradle of Civilization featured in the 2008 HBO "We were the marines getting hammered before seals,recon, and rangers showed up.We also had a part in jessica lynch getting rescued. 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, under the call sign Task Force Tarawa, attacked north into the city, seizing two major bridges along "Ambush Alley". Eighteen Marines were killed in heavy urban fighting, including at least one Marine who was killed when A-10s mistakenly strafed a company of Marines north of the Saddam Canal.We toppled that place including mosques(shat happens).Now that i look back on all of it and say for what? what was the point.A small stint in iraq 6 months in afghan and 4 months on cuba.I say let them build it.not all muslims are derka derka jihad. Its like saying all white people are KKK or all black people are lazy which they are (i Keed i keed) It is what it is.they build they build they don't they don't. My meds for PTSD have me in a happy place now and i plan on staying there. Konichiwa Bitches
That's the difference in religions. I believe that if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior then you will go to hell for eternity. You have to accept Jesus into your heart for eternal life. Hence many of the recent changes in my attitude. I'm turning a new page in life because this recent crap I've been doing is just downright retarded and not pleasing to God. No they don't. After Abraham the Quaran is very different. It is Christian. There are many different flavors. Mine is non-denominational but with a lot of Southern Baptist influence.
I have quite a few Muslim customers (day job selling beer to convenience stores) and the ones I get along with I talk to about a lot of these events. Of the ones I spoke to (and I know they do not represent ALL Muslims) most of them feel that it is being done as a slap in the face to America and a monument to Islam conquering America. Again, these are not my words, these are coming from a some customers/friends who are Muslims. My personal feeling. I say we can not prevent them or we are going against what this country stands for and being hypocritical. It is bad taste on their part, but not illegal.
When it comes to online forums, I try to abide by the expression "If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all." It works well for me - I can be pretty objectionable. But sometimes, just sometimes, I see something written so objectionable I have to override my guiding maxim. So here's 2c for you: I read this and I wonder how we ever had the enlightenment to manage to put a man on the moon. Furthermore: When I get to heaven, I WILL see my dog. So there.
funny how that works, here is a good link that may shed some light on our continuing problem, http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/07/the_mosques_of_war.html
I'm still pretty undecided on the issue. Like many said, I can see it being in bad taste, but also religious freedom is one of the values that this country hangs it's hat on. I haven't done extensive research on this, but I do seem to remember seeing an interview with one of the people wanting to build it, and I can kind of see their rational. They want to show that population that there are such a thing as moderate muslims.
What are you talking about Quran is very different? Qur'an was NEVER, i repeat, NEVER changed ever since it was first written. Unlike bible, you guys get a new version every year, what type of crap is that. I bet you haven't even read your own book, the bible, and you're here trying to act all religous.
My curiosity regards the matter you mentioned above. I am more interested in watching or understanding how we decide on the matter within or out of the bounds of our laws. That whole sticky Bill of Rights and it's "freedoms" we're all "guaranteed". Its the problem with trying to make an objective decision, and what is happening regarding this issue only further strengthens my opinion that it is damn near impossible to do so (no matter the scale of the decision).
Depending on your definition of what constitutes a declaration of 'ground zero.' If you take the meaning that ground zero is associated with the damage cause by the weapon used, then this mosque is being built on ground zero. From my understanding, the building that USED to be where the mosque wants to be built was destroyed by debris from one of the aircraft.
Mr Broken...have YOU read the entire, original, untranslated Qur'an? It's possible...but I doubt it. What you have read, assuming you have entirely read it, is a TRANSLATION. This means that a bunch of educated men/women sat down with original manuscripts and using proper translation techniques came up with a readable version for you. The work the put into this encompassed several years as they have to consider the dialects, and grammatical "rules" that were in place several thousand years ago... The above is true as well for THE BIBLE which was written over a much, much larger space of time and encompasses several more languages than the Qur'an does. It has also been translated, using the same tedious process, many times. The "versions" that are available are simply translations made by educated men. Granted some of these "versions" make a mockery of and distort the original texts. Thus, we can surmise, that the modern texts ie translations ie versions, both for the Qur'an and for THE BIBLE could be different, whether radically or minutely is not for me to say, from the SOURCE also known as the original texts.
Regardless to any of the above it's all about your faith. Broken has faith that the Qur'an is the same and never changed...just as CoolRex does for THE BIBLE. It's no secret, as the article that breel posted indicates, that Islam has been "at war" with all other religions since it first came on the scene in the 7th century. It's also no secret that each different religious believer is going to affirm and re-affirm the correctness and "superiority" of their religion, many even under threat of death. It's all about your faith. This is where the comment "can't we all just get along?" and "agree to disagree" popup. Though sadly this doesn't work well in real life. Too many people are willing to "hate" on other people b/c of a religious disagreement.
I think politically, not too many people believe in any credibility that the people behind this particular mosque are all that moderate. I think it would be a different story with most people if this was a legitimately progressive sect of Muslims, people who've actively and vociferously been rejecting, regardless of who the target is, all terrorism perpetrated in the name of Allah. But thats not the case with this group.
Within the bounds of our laws there is nothing that can be done to prevent this mosque being built. However, said mosque will be the target of hatred, vandalism, threats, and most likely a disgruntled bombing. Within the bounds of our laws, the City/State of NY could call for a legislation that prohibits ANY religious entity establishing themselves within x# of blocks from ground zero. Should THIS pass it would then be flagged as unconstitutional by the Muslim population and be appealed to the supreme court. At this time the only way it could hold up, and be over-turned by the supreme court is if they perceive that the new legislation is actually PROTECTING the majority by placing a threat or danger in the midst of the population.
First time i have seen a religion thread on here... what about those who believe in other higher powers, such as Scott Siegel? Are they also unreasonable in their beliefs? On another note, that new Mustang Boss 302 looks pretty cool. BTW, you guys are getting too serious for a off-topic thread.