So I have had the XXR 527's on the car for awhile and I really like the way they look. However, the 8.75 width on a +35 offset is having more of an effect on the steering feel of the car than I had anticipated. Between the ALK, steering rack bushings and the killer alignment from AllPro...we have gotten a lot of that back, but it still isn't all there. I put the stock tires back on the car just to make sure...and it definitely feels tighter. While everything pretty much feels fine in daily driving, the car is not as stable on hard runs as it used to be. I want to take advantage of the extra tread, so switching out to the stockers every time to go to the mountains doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. The way I see it...I have one of three options...so I was going to see what you guys think. Use the stock wheels/tires to beat up on mountain runs and keep these for DD/show. Wait until I have my Bilstein/RCE combo installed sometime next month and see if the increased handling characteristics find enough of a balance. Sell these wheels (dual drilled and inventory low...so they should be easy to unload) and get something in a 18x9.5 +40 (Rota D) or 18x9.0 +40 (Rota SVN) I have been doing the calculations and this is what I am coming up with. Stock wheels: 17x8 +53 XXR 527: 18x8.75 +35 (current setup) Inner Clearance - 8mm more Outer Position - 28mm more Rota D: 18x9.5 +40 Inner Clearance - 6mm less Outer Position - 32mm more Rota SVN: 18x9 +40 Inner Clearance - Same as stock Outer Position - 26mm more Rota T2R: 18x9.5 +38 (would have to find them in flat black somewhere) Inner Clearance - 4mm less Outer Position - 34mm more If I am going to switch...I want to keep it at a relatively inexpensive wheel. These won't be seeing any full time track duty or anything...and we have a baby coming in October. So Volks an other more expensive brands are out the door for now.
-1.5 camber at all four corners and a touch of toe in (about a 1/16"). Caster was at 6 degrees at the time of the alignment, but that should be increased to 6.5 with the addition of the ALK.
I'd bump up the camber closer to 2 and absolutely ZERO toe. You would be amazed at how much a difference the camber will make and it will not increase tire wear.
For the 5x100 rotas, i think the SVNs are among the best. Those and the only 18x9s with a closer off set to stock. Ive been eyeing thos flat black ones for a while. Not considering the g-forces?
Too little off set haha. For cheaper wheels id go with the SVNs or there are some O.Z ultralaggeras that look nice with OEM fitment, but are a little pricier. Around 400 per wheel iirc.
If handling really is your main concern, a nice, light 17x8.5 or 17x9 in say a rpf1 with a 245 is nasty combo. If looks are up there as well stay the course.
What tires are on the wheels now, handling issues generally have less to do with the wheels and more to do with the tire. Also thats not enough camber in the front.
Ok heres a couple of things to consider. 1. It may be the tires, if it is changing the wheels isn't going to help 2. That alignment is far from optimal when it comes to handling. 3. 17s are not the optimal wheel size like everyone thinks. Generally speaking a similar size 18 tends to have a stiffer sidewall and usually "feels" like it has better steering response. 4. For optimal handling your alignment specs are going to need to be closer to something like this.... Front 2.5-2.8 degrees camber and zero toe Rear 1.5-1.8 degrees camber and 0 to 1\16th toe in What air pressure are you running front and rear? Matt Edit: I know its a street car and you may not want to run an alignment as aggressive as that, just giving you some food for thought.
No I appreciate the input. I have heard really good things about these tires so I don't think that is it. They have the same 280 tread wear rating as the stock Dunlops (brand changes do not usually correlate perfectly though) The alignment is a .5 degree more negative camber than it was stock...so it was a move in the right direction. As a DD, I am not sure I want to go anymore aggressive than that as I would have to really start watching the inside of the tires. What gets me is just switching back and forth between the stock wheels and these is such a drastic steering feeling difference. If I have options outside of getting new wheels...I am all for it!!! My thought was the increased inside track might be the core reason for what I am feeling. The last twisty road run we took (on current settings)...I was slower than usual when I should have more grip with the increased tire patch to the ground. My wife even noticed it in the passenger seat on the first run I took on the new setup (that was prior to the new alignment). When I say slower than usual...I felt faster on the stock setup with stock camber measurements.
Hence why I said he needs to up his camber specs some. The Hankook V12's in 255's prolly have a softer sidewall than the 245's . Some of the M3 guys were discussing how much of a difference there was in 265 vs 275 Kook v12's. the 275 were sloppy junk when the 265 performed like a dream. The treadwear means NOTHING in relation to the sizing of the tire like I just mentioned above. Sidewall strength plays a HUGE part in steering feedback and handling characteristics.
Don't let the fact that it feels slower fool you. Many times with drastic changes, like tires and alignments, the car may feel slower but in fact be faster. Mind you I'm not saying you are wrong they may very well not feel as fast as the stock tires but it could be that the increase in grip is making it feel slower because you aren't on the edge of traction. What tire pressures are you running?
I don't know if its true in the case of the V12s but many times specific size tires will be designed for a specific application. Perhaps the 275 was designed as a rear tire for something, the chord layout would be different and would not respond as well on turn in. I know for a fact that some of the new Michelin PSS tires are that way, I've got a letter from one of the engineers talking about it. They recommend not running several of the sizes as a front tire.
38 psi front 36 psi rear. I should have specified too...the slower is felt with less control. I have had the slower feeling = faster before and that is typically met with the feeling of more control over the car with consistent steering/acceleration/braking/traction. This slower feeling is with a loss of grip/control/steering.
I have had them since 8/11 and they have seen two mountain runs plus all of my daily driving (which is a pretty good amount compared to most).
Yeah they broken in plenty. I really don't think the rims themselves are doing much of anything. I think it's more the tires and the suspension setup that is the culprit. I mean you are still on stock springs and struts.
I guess the part I am not getting is how the car can feel so much better on the stock tires and wheels. Maybe the increased track is putting more leverage on the stock suspension? I am running front and rear RCE sways too...
The wheels are def changing the way the car feels. You are not the first person to run into this issue. I dont know enough if its offset related, but to me its seems it would be more of a larger contact patch and/or heavier wheels and tires per corner issue/combo.
Not to say that you are wrong.... But doesn't any camber that is not 0 increase tread wear on the respective side of the camber?
Subaru's run camber from the factory. Until you hit more than 1.8-2 degrees the increased treadwear is minimal.
Yea camber has very minimal affect on treadwear, what kills threadwear is the toe. If toe is set up aggressively, then you can say bye to your tires lol.
This is kind of where I get left on this topic...with more questions than answers... Maybe I need someone to drive my car just to make sure I am not crazy...
I'd say you need a track day. With the stock wheels and tires and with the current setup. Then you would know for sure. Hate to see you spend more money and get the same results.
Me too...everything I have done to this point I was going to do anyway regardless of wheels. I haven't strayed from my original timeline yet. Getting custom tuned on the 10th and then the RCE strut/spring combo next month. Wheels are the only hiccup in this deal as I was not expecting the handling change.
No, If you had zero camber you would wear the outside edges every time you turn. Ideal camber on the street and the track are two different things. If you regularly track your car you can get away with a lot more camber than if you don't. I run 2.8 degrees up front and I see perfectly flat tire wear as long as I track the car on a normal basis. If you don't track the car and you run 2.8 up front you will destroy tires. Toe exaggerates camber wear, Thats a really short uncomplicated way of explaining it because I don't want to go into a 4 hour discussion on toe.
robb, i cant remember your setup off the top of my head. but if you dont already have endlinks your going to need those. sways obviously. do you have steering rack bushings? rear subframe stay bushings? And you have to keep in mind your handling can only get so good with stock struts.
RCE Sways Stock metal endlinks Steering Rack Bushings Anti-lift Kit I know the car is only going to be so good off the stock struts. What I am not understanding is when I put the stock wheels back on...the car feels so much better. I wonder if I just exposed another weakness by going with the wider track/wider tread.
It is definitely a possibility. It is hard to pinpoint what exactly it may be but it could be the size of your sway in the front or maybe it needs to be adjusted tighter. Control arm bushings could be a factor. Its really hard to say. Do you have time to bring the car by the shop tomorrow and let me drive it to see what it could be?
Absolutely. Front is already on stiff with the rear on soft as I have been running it from day 1. Tried the rear on stiff and that didn't seem to help either.
That is where my brain was going with it. That is why I was wondering if I go with a +40 wheel vs. the +35 now...how much of the handling would I gain back? The 8.75" +35 wheels make the tire 8mm farther away from the struts where the 9" by +40 would be the same as stock and the 9.5" +40 would actually bring the inner track of the tire in 6mm from stock.
Correct, with your wider wheels and smaller offset there is more leverage on your struts which in turn could be causing a softer feel when you bite into a corner.
I would get the suspension setup first before getting a new set of wheels and see if that makes a difference for you (which most likely will). EDIT OPTIONS:
Guys, there is just now way that he is feeling the difference in offset. I can do the math for the suspension if I really need to but there is noway he is feeling that. The difference in leverage provided by a different offset wheel is negligible. Its the tires, or the setup isn't right for those tires.
Now way? What's a now way Matt? I do appreciate the input. I don't pretend to be a suspension expert by any means.
I guess the second part to that question would be should I have gone with 245's instead of 255's to bring the tread in a little bit that would effectively stiffen the sidewall? As it sits right now...the tires are almost exactly flush with the rim. I'm not sure that is even a question that is actually answerable at this time.
Give me more of a break down of what you feel that you don't like. Is turn in slow. Does it feel like there isn't as much overall grip etc....
Ok...I am actually out driving the car right now. Really light steering feel into the turn. When in the turn...extremely loose feeling in the steering wheel. You can actually shake it back and forth while in the turn with zero change in the car's direction. Almost feels like it is floating. The car also seems to be rolling more than normal. With the stock wheels...the car feels more planted and flat. More understeer...it doesn't want to hold the turn as well which is weird when matched with the loose steering feel. You would think it would be pushing and harder to steer. Overall...the car feels like it is gliding instead of biting.
Depending on how that works you may be able to soften the front bar and stiffen the rear. That should let the front roll over further into the camber curve and give it some more bite.
When I started this...I was at 35 psi all around. I increased it slightly thinking I might be rolling over under hard cornering which was causing the feeling.