So my builder find out that my threads were previously damaged by the dealership and that they installed heli-coils without telling me. The heli-coil pull out when he was torquing his torque plates. First, is there enough meat for P&Ls 13mm head studs.. after the heli-coil pull out. Second, the shortblock is fully assembled. It measures about 16" (correct if I am wrong) from deck to deck... so it has to be a Mill that has big enough range to fit the shortblock. The shortblock should be back on Friday from California, my builder says that it cost about 100 bucks to get that done in CA. Let me know I need this done ASAP.. the P&L head studs set comes with the necessary taps
Where are you located? Any one of the vendors on this board can probably help. Contact Matt Ball @ Ball Racing.
Was about to PM you, we can do it, however I need to see the block to determine how much dammage there is. If its not bad then the charges won't be that bad if it is, then quite honestly it will be expensive because we will need to put a time-sert in each hole. Bring it by the shop and let us take a look at it. Ill give you a price before we do it. Matt
More info on this engine here Matt. *edit I see you are already in there* http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=35921619#post35921619
Ill post this in here so if anyone else has this problem they will understand the process. We can time-sert the hole (fancy heli-coil) however if for any reason it doesn't take the size that you have to drill it to is larger than a 13mm head stud so the block will be worthless. I'm going over the options with David today to see what the most reasonable course of action is. The Subaru block is challenging because the hole is so deep.
Paul at P&L said that the 13mm will not work because there is no enough meat... So I need to install the big-serts no matter what. If the heli-coil that were on my car was able to hold my heads and set the VF39 trap speed record and the FP Green record; 2.5 years/ 27k miles of daily redline. The better big-sert should do the job for some good time. I been searching and this is the kits that I need but it may be too short... http://www.timesert.com/html/5112D-note.html This guy used the regular 11125bs with success http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2264883&highlight=timesert I think this is the one we need for the Big-serts for deep studs # 11125BS http://roadmasterengineworld.com/engine-parts-c-74_1006_1011_1018.html
I agree but I don't want to be out 1.5k. If I had known from the beginning that my block was tapped for heli-coils. I would have gotten a new case.. How about 9/16" AMR head studs.... I think that should work..
Why not just go with ARP studs? If it is going to pull an ARP stud, it is going to pull any stud you put in there.
I have to be honest, we were obviously to expensive to machine your block so you sent it to someone else. Obviously we are expensive whey would you consider us to put in head studs. I don't want to sound like a jerk but quite frankly its not something I'm inclined to do. We prefer to work with customers that understand why we charge what we do and want quality work performed. I don't like picking up other shops seconds. This isn't a slam on Jeff by any means, but you elected to have him hone you're block in a tub on the deck of his apartment and you want us to drill and tap for head studs. No thanks. We appreciate the thought but its not something we are interested in. I posted this as a public post because I want people to understand this isn't what we are about. We build engines from start to finish for people who value our expertise. I don't want to get a reputation as the shop who fixes other peoples screw ups. We never would have machined that block, we would have called you and let you know what the situation was and let you make a decision as to what course to follow. Again not trying to be rude I just want you to understand where I'm coming from. Thanks Matthew Ball Ball Racing LLC
I think you should post this ^ on NASIOC... I think you are being rude... I didn't go with you guys because I am was not going to pay and assembler and a machinist 10hrs of labor at $150 to assemble and a block that was already split and for a valve job. The dealership screw up 2.5 years ago... and I didn't know, Crystal called me a soon as he found there was a heli-coil... it was too late. Crystal has a better track record in the Subaru community... Yes he build his 9 second subaru in his apartment and he has posted at least 30 low 10sec passes on NASIOC with video and time slips. If he is good enough to build motors for vendors on NASIOC he is going enough to build a motor for me. I was just looking for a machine shop to drill my heads and drill and tap my short block for bigger studs... I think that is a very common procedure. If you guys cannot handle it thats ok. Have a great day Juan Medina
How is Ball being rude......that right there is 100% honesty and it's something you don't find in many places? He is flat out telling you that he prefers to not fix another shops screw ups (in your case the dealership). He never bashed Crystal....simply stated a fact of how Crystal builds his engines. There's a vast difference in the caliber of work here. Yes both may work and net the same result. But I also know that Matt will stand behind his product and if something messed up due to something he is responsible for....you will have a brand new engine heading to ya.
Have you read the post? He has a stud that had a helicoil in it. So a standard sized stud will not fit. The helicoil came out so the threads are ruined. He is trying to find a solution to salvage the block but since the helicoil has already took most of the meat out that one stud is going to be weak. Even P&L said their 13mm won't work due to insufficient meat on the threads. The AMR studs may work but 9/16" = 14.3mm. That's a LOT of material to remove. I'd be worried about the coolant jackets and such....it's the same as going with 100mm pistons. You make the wall so thin that eventually it'll crack.
I'm headed to the shop now so I don't have much time to reply. In short I don't feel like I could make you understand the value of our service before and I feel like by us installing headstuds in that particular block that we are creating more of a liability for ourselves than it is worth.
:eek3: I am not asking him to fix anything... I just want him to tap my block for 9/16 head studs. If the engines are build/assembled with a vast difference in the caliber of work, but they yield the same results and cost vastly less.... which one do you think I am going to choose? I value good work and honesty but I am not a sucker... I will pay for good work.. how much do you think I payed for shipping my block all the way to California? As of right now Crystal has a better track record, I can't wait to see 9sec subarus with ball-racing engines in the future. 14mm studs have been out forever... Tony rigoli had them in his 7.50@185mph rwd subaru, and in his 8.34@158mph AWD subaru. The OEM head stud holes are 14mm but they taper to the11mm thread. People crack cylinder walls because they run shitty tunes. If you machinist is competent he would be able to know if there is enough material for new threads with the 9/16 studs, which is the same size as Big-serts which are design to fix threads when a heli-coil goes bad.
And he doesn't want to....he knows your track record and would rather not take the risk of being blamed. He's playing safe here and you really can't blame him. That I didn't know. If that's the case and it's done right the AMR studs 'should' work. Good luck with it. He is the machinist pretty much. He works in conjunction with the machine shop and he is at the machine shop all the time.
bore scope and a pen light from the start and we wouldn't have this discussion. Most engine builders take the time to inspect a block or case halves before doing any machine work. Especially if building an engine with high boost on a platform that is notorious for the heads to lift. Most machine shops don't like picking up seconds because the last is always to blame when something happens. Good luck
yeah sounds to me like this is a problem that could have been headed off at the beginning (whoever did the original/last teardown), then you're asking Ball Engines to fix that problem, however you wanna twist it, that's what you were asking, him to work on something that was previously done wrong. PERIOD