Concealed carry.....an in depth discussion

So we have a lot of concealed carry folks here. Lets have a friendly discussion.

Co-worker is fussing about carrying chambered. I personally believe that it depends on the user. I carry chambered but only cause I know my way around a gun. This co-worker has fired a round unintentionally in the wall of his home and he blames it on the gun. Says he was unloading it and his grip slipped and when the rack closed it fired the gun. I'm not saying it's impossible but unlikely yet he blames the gun and is selling it cause of such.

This all prompted a discussion about CWP and such and apparently it pissed him off when I said that I personally think that many CWP owners do not have sufficient training and knowledge to own such a permit and that I think that it's too easy to get a CWP.

Discuss. I'm in no way anti CWP or anti gun....I support it furiously. However it comes with a LOT of responsibility and people that get the privilege to have one should be knowledgeable and trained where it needs to be.

Mind you this dude showed me his gun and had his finger in the trigger guard the entire time.........just careless handling and ticked me off (esp knowing that gun was cocked and loaded). I don't care if the safety is on....never take it for granted it is on and never put your finger on the trigger until you intend to fire it).


discuss........

 

All of my handguns only have 1 safety...my finger. Yes I keep a round chambered.

 

If you are carrying without one in the chamber you are a fool, I don't care who you are. You might as well leave the gun at home.

As far as his careless handling of the gun...you should have unloaded it and pistol whipped him.

A gun without one in chamber is about as good as a rock.

 

Yeah what Matt said.

Accidents can happen but they happen a lot more when you either don't respect the weapon or you have not educated yourself on how to use it properly.

The new carry licenses are pretty cool. They look like a real license now instead of laminated paper.

 

I think we all know the answer to this and the consensus will be one in the chamber. I even keep my home defense pistol cocked. Lack of training is the culprit, and what's worse is you can't get training in GA for liability reasons. I asked an officer last time I was renewing when I could and could not draw my weapon and use it and he told me he couldn't tell me because that would be interpreting the law and he would be legally liable, that he's only there to enforce the law.

I still, even with a CWP, don't know when I can and can't use it. I figure if the time ever presents itself, it will be a life threatening situation and I'll deal with whatever consequences I'm faced with afterwards, but in the moment my life and the life of those I care about is way more important.

 

Yeah I personally always chamber. But bottom line is many have no business doing so being so irresponsible.

 

agreed, but aren't cops really 'interpreting the law' every time they 'enforce the law' (NOT code:i.e. speeding, things that are posted and black and white)? think about it....

and i don't have my CWP yet, because Hinesville is seriously out of the way for me and the only time I'm free anymore, they're closed. however, i do keep one chambered in the glovebox. i agree, whats the point if you have to rack one? you'd already be dead

and on the issue of training, i think it should be offered for anyone who purchases a CWP. sort of like getting your motorcycle license. you can take a weekend training course with Harley Davidson instructors and after successful completion, TADA! you have your Class M. OR you could just go take the test. so maybe, have a test on top of the fees, exactly like getting your license and then allow certified instructors/ranges to offer weekend classes that certify you to get your CWP. wouldn't be mandatory, just another option a LOT would take

 

your friend has terrible gun handling skills and shouldn't be carrying, although it is in his legal right to do so.

carrying a weapon without one chambered is carrying unloaded. guns don't work when they aren't loaded.

cocked and locked 1911 - it's single action so the hammer is back with the thumb safety on. I can take the weapon from safe to fire in my draw movement, so it's a non issue for me.

drew and to the others: I would familiarize yourself with the applicable code for your state. for georgia, the language was cleaned up considerably a few years ago to make it less ambiguous. don't be caught as being ignorant of the law and land yourself with a brandishing, or worse, manslaughter charge.

knowing is half the battle!

 

I have a .... different view.

If you've allowed yourself to encounter a situation where the time it takes to chamber a round renders the weapon meaningless, its more likely you've done a few other things wrong ahead of that which represent a larger part of the problem.

By all means, have it chambered if you feel its necessary, but if you are expecting or not trying actively to head off a situation before that gap of time is the only wiggleroom you get, thats a mighty scary way to deal with threat assessments.

.... (does nobody carry a revolver anymore?)

 

What's the purpose of carrying if there isn't a round in it. He should sell his firearm and buy a bb gun instead since he is going for the "cool" look of carrying a gun.

Round is ALWAYS in the chamber on all of my firearms. I usually replace the one that the mag looses to make sure i have one in the chamber and a full mag. I bet he is one of those that uses "clip" instead of "mag" too.

 

Cowboys and people that live out here in Forsyth that drive pick ups.

 

Nothing to discuss. Just another fine example of government greed for quick money. Driver License can fall under same discussion. You have people out there driving that don't even know what yield sign means.

As one in the chamber, I didnt know people carried without one in the chamber.

 

this doesn't only apply to a situation where you would need a CWP, what about when someone breaks into your house/car, or even if someone comes up and mugs/attacks you in the street? those aren't situations to which your hypotheticals apply

 

believe in unicorns too?

 

back to topic, when cleaning/servicing your weapon, do it in a room by yourself with no distractions. Had a neighbor shoot his son, did not end well.

 

Seems like most of us are on the same page. That's encouraging...bottom line don't mess with anyone that is or was a Subaru owner...lol.

I still think its entirely too easy to get a CWP...same applies for drivers license. You have to take the certification test anyways...throw in some proper training. Two CWP trainers I know make their classes a two day affair. One entire day is on proper handling, safety, and technique which is invaluable. But never enough IMHO.

 

Youre right, however no amount of training can fully prepare you for what you will actually do when the time comes to pull that trigger, all you can do is condition the mind to react a certain way

 

you're awfully naive. if someone comes at me with a weapon with intent to do bodily harm, my idea of 'heading off the situation' is drawing my weapon; NOT asking nicely.

and no, no one carries revolvers unless it's a purse or ankle/pocket. why limit yourself to six rounds?

 

thats my point.

risk mitigation and threat assesment, the REAL stuff, isn't about addressing a boogieman on their own terms.

of those examples, home defense is most likely of them to where the time to escalation is actually beyond any other control factor you have at the time. (and many argue that even that is debateable.)

The other examples you give just illustrate a path of bad choices that lead to that becoming the reality. There is a certain measure of personal responsibility that you bear to maintain control at all times if someone is going to wield LETHAL force in defense of themselves.

If you live dangerously leaving the only choice available to you is to exert that lethal force, then thats what you WILL do. Insisting the only -real- way to own a gun is always chambered, ready to fire... it just screams at me that there is more to the situation.

Examine the Treyvon case for an example of that, Zimmerman was someone whom made very poor choices on threat assesment of Treyvon, and that is something everyone agrees upon in hindsight. Zimmerman following him on foot was about the dumbest thing in the world he could've done from a threat assesment perspective, and it set into motion a sequence of events that (while we're still sorting them out) could have obviously and easily been headed off.


... i just REALLY feel strongly about the right to use lethal force in defense of yourself being heavily tempered with an equally sober dose of personal responsibility. Most people talk about moral self-defense, but there is actually a legal definition that you will have to uphold in court. And if you cant, then its assault and murder.

 

or 7 or 8? ;p I was just generally curious about it is all, because the whole point was having it ready to fire...

 

Funny you bring up the Treyvon case. Are you listening to just the media?

While I agree that Zimmerman following was kinda dumb, I've seen reports of witnesses that saw Zimmerman with his back turned and the kid attacking him and plummeting him however who know what the truth was.

Media hype...

 

The example of the guy I know who shot a hole in his wall.....he was unloading his gun and his daughter was in the room with him . Glad no one got hurt.

 

wrong. it's about addressing a threat that is being presented on their teams, and using a weapon to bring it into your own terms.

 

Who here has killed someone or knows someone that has killed someone in self defense that isn't military?

I have a story that I think most of my close friends know which includes a few people on here and I'm happy to share it with people but I won't post it on the forum. If you want to hear it you are welcome to ask me in person. The basics of the story are that if you feel that the threat is a danger to your life or someone else's then you should act on it and end the threat.



(Military guys I don't feel any need for any of you to drag up memories and share them with or nor do I feel like after what you have done for our country that you should ever have to defend yourself to the public.)

My favorite quote, read into it what you will.

“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
― Dalai Lama XIV

 

Thats not even the same kid in the second picture. Two different people.

 

<--carry with one in the chamber.

why carry if it's not loaded? what use is it in an emergency situation? my only safety is my respect for a 'loaded' weapon. I treat all my weapons as loaded.

Rule 1: all weapons are loaded
Rule 2: NEVER point a gun at something you don't plan on destroying
Rule 3: Keep your finger straight and off the trigger
Rule 4: Be sure of your target and what's behind it.

simple rules but effective. Live by the rules and you should be good.

Who out here is a competition shooter? GADPA, etc?

Joe

 

You are correct....media/social sites at its best. But still in that case people don't know the facts of that kids past....he has been arrested and booked numerous times.

But this has nothing to do with this discussion as a whole so I'm dropping that subject right here.


Back on subject......carry cocked and chambered with the proper equipment. If you don't have a holster that prevents accidental discharge you shouldn't be carrying loaded. I see so many people carrying guns with no holster it's mind boggling and retarded. Its not too hard to have something pull your trigger while in your pocket if you are not using a holster (not to mention how quickly your gun will get dirty). Its super easy to not think about it and put something else in your pocket with your firearm. Hence why I either use a pocket holster that is designed to stay in your pocket but allow you to draw your firearm without hindrance, or use a IWB holster which also covers the trigger so something won't accidently pull it.

 

you said nothing you didn't say in the first response, and therefore nothing my response doesn't still question.

who says you put yourself in those situations?! you live in an affluent neighborhood, do everything to protect yourself, your home and your family, yet some hoodrat decided to make some money illegally and attacks (as in BEATS you/threatens you with a gun) you as you're getting in your car in the morning in your driveway....

 

<--- CWP always 1 in the chamber.
It is about respect of the weapon.

 

I'm going to venture out and say he's never spent an extensive amount of time in downtown atlanta - as in lived there. If so, he'd realize that negotiating isn't what muggers are really interested in doing...

Wonder if he's ever had a car full of suspect people follow him as he walked home, living just outside of campus. I know wrxin8or has.

Then again, by his logic, I guess I should live in a highrise downtown and have an escorted limo take me everywhere. That's about the only way to remove yourself from the situation...

 

Failure to feed
Double Feed
Stovepipe
Bad Primer


Auto:

Clear the malfunction then attempt to ready the weapon again.


Revolver:

Pull the trigger again.

If you're pulling a pistol to save your life from an attack, you're more than likely not going to be in a good "firing stance". Call me crazy if you want, but I prefer a revolver for CC.


Don't get me wrong here though. A properly trained and practiced person can make those errors minuscule.

I personally don't have the time to spend at the range practicing every scenario to the level that would be required for me to feel comfortable enough.

That being said, I still own 3 self loading pistols.

 

the increase in round capacity is worth it, but revovlers aren't fool proof either: ejector rod unscrewing, build up on the face of the cylinder causing it not to turn, etc.

I was actually walking with brett when this happened - pretty scary situation

 

Tell me about it.

I lived in Decatur for about 5 years, was young and saw so much shit happen on daily basis in my own apartment complex. Even my first car got stollen down there. My buddy got shot, blew his spine out of proportion, family member got shot in the chest and half a inch from his heart. My family apartment just across me got jumped into while the house was full of people.

Fine example of being followed.

After buddy of mine, his girl and I leave the shooting range, his girl drove back,driving his car, she I guess cut off some people at a light. As we pulled up to a gas station where I left my car, 5 minutes later, the same car that she I guess cut off pulls up and four african american dudes come jumping out. Long story short, he goes for his ar in his trunk and the 4 dudes ran back to their jeep and took off.

A lot of people dont know the real world, they just know the 2 miles crap away from their home. Lucky you.


And cases like this happen on daily basis. All the cases I knew about, no defenders had guns in their house, and I believe that if they did, the outcome would have been different on every case.

 

Offer honest opinion about weapons training, get called naive, unicorn-lover, live a sheltered life with no risks.... lol I aint even mad; none of you know me or who i've lost, so I wont even bother with all that.

I never said don't carry, or never carry chambered, or even hinted that you don't have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself.

but because I even SUGGESTED that only relying on a weapon to be chambered at all times to be useful and relevant is possibly not the best way to deal with your environment, or to think about your personal awareness of risk....

-------

Here's what that makes me worry about: People who arm themselves may have not reasonably given enough thought about the long-term consequences of using deadly force, and here's what i mean about that:

Most people don't acknowledge this fact- by you yourself bringing a gun into every encounter you are personally responsible for dramatically increasing the likelyhood of having a gun-related incident.

And in that violent encounter, NOBODY survives violence without damage. Even if you are the one left standing and he is not, you will have taken damage that is part of you forever. In your 30s, are you prepared to live the next 40~50 years of your life after having taken anothers life? Are you prepared to own all the doubts and hindsight second guessing? To give that idea respect, to be ready to ask myself every day after that encounter "is there something ANYTHING under God's breath that I could have done differently to where this person is not dead? Could I/should I have been aware of what was happening 2 or 3 seconds sooner and not ended up killing him?" Because once the adrenalyn of the situation drains away, once the police reports are filed, and the news truck leaves, and your weapon is returned to you, and all the feelings of righteous vindication have faded, It'll just be you and that voice inside asking what if you didn't kill him?

And thats if you use it on purpose. The start of this thread was talking about safety, and someone having an accidental discharge. By carrying the weapon chambered all the time, are you ready for the consequence of its accidental discharge in a place where there wasn't even any risk? Remember, this is not a hypothetical involving things beyond your control; you bring the weapon to every encounter, and you prime it with a round.


I really have a tough time accepting that NOBODY on here gets what I'm talking about in the least... but I've already addressed this to my own personal satisfaction in talking with various range officers, and police officers in my life about it. I find it interesting that range officers will kick you out if you try to bring a chambered, or even a clip loaded weapon, at the range outside of your lane. At the place where you expect to encounter both the MOST guns and the MOST educated gun owners are, they insist you only carry cold weapons... And, a cop's job often involves inserting themselves into a high risk situation intentionally where it makes the most sense to always have one chambered, whereas a civllian is expected to leave the same high risk situation or even better avoid it altogether.

These things tell me its far less about handling the weapon and/or deadly force and the more it is about situational awareness.

 

Personally, if my answer to this question was no, then I wouldn't carry. I've prepared myself for the results of my actions prior to committing them.

 

I have been reading this thread for sometime... and I really didnt wanna chime in but I figured it was time... this is a response to the original post.


Depending on the weapon system at hand it might be chambered say if I had a glock 19 with no safety but my shooting finger I would not have one in the pipe.


In all reality charging a round is a show of force and can change the situation at hand when they hear the famous sound.... but just like overseas... Choppers do LOW flybys to show what we have and ready to use if they act shady. With that being said a weapon should never be presented unless intended to be used at that current time...

But EVERYTHING is METTC so do whatcha want!

 

Let's flip this around cause it most certainly goes both ways. What if you were presented a situation where lets say you and your family are out enjoying yourselves. Dude shows up to rob you. You are not carrying when you could be because you think highly of what you posted. In the heat of the moment the robber shoots and kills someone you highly care for? Or lets even say you did carry yet didn't have a round ready. Robber shoots someone you care about when it could be / may have been able to be adverted if you were properly prepped and ready?

Really there will ALWAYS be the what if in any situation NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT.

That makes your last point quite for lack of a better word pointless.

 

And just to let people know.....I have a family member who lived because he carried chambered and ready. I'm well aware of the things he goes through. I asked him if he ever felt regrets. His reply was "No. Although it could have ended differently, that person made his own personal decision to put himself and others in the situation that got him killed. I never put myself in that situation but because was somewhat prepped for the unknown I lived."

 

I carry often, Yet I still respect this pov. As someone said prior, it can also go both ways though. "I'd rather be tried by 12, then my family or I carried by 6".

Anyways, if I am carrying, I always carry chambered. When I started carrying as a noob until I got comfortable with pistol safety, I carried my p238 hammer back, safety on, one not chambered. The reality is, if a situation ever called for the firearm to be pulled, the amount of time it would take to ready the weapon would be considered unacceptable(and I kept that in the back of my head), thusly making my own situation even more dangerous and precarious. My realization was that either that when I carry, I carry chambered regardless of the situation or event, or I don't carry at all.

If you carry with modern day weapons and always properly holstered. The only type of discharge you can ever have is a negligent discharge. Negligent referring to anything activating the trigger accidentally. The trigger should never be exposed if properly holstered.

FYI, not carrying a Glock chambered is not very smart. Would you carry a revolver with one of its cylinders unloaded? Think of a Glock A more safe revolver. Firearms don't get much more safe then a Glock.

 

Being a Glock owner, I would tend to agree. To others, you just started a pissing match.

 

This is key to what I believe. Don't carry chambered without proper equipment.

 

Someone mentioned showing the weapon as a show of force, I'm not a big fan of that. I'm not saying I haven't done it but in hindsight it could have escalated the situation.

I'm with WRXBoXer, Ill take my chances being judged by 12 because I'm sure not going to be carried by 6.

 

ftfy

 

Agree. You will not see my weapon as it will not present itself unless I plan to use it. If I plan to use it, then and only then will you know I have it and then, it's too late.

Do you guys frequent Ar15? There was a great write up about 3 weeks ago talking about the personalities that "stick-up" people. And the type
Of person that will stick up a person has already come to grips with their decision to shoot. I recommend you looking it up and reading the entire post by a former police officer.

Joe

 

^^^ Correct

 

I'm over there some Ill have to check it out.

Never assume that the guy robbing you has the same morals you do...

 

it's very presumptuous and arrogant of you to think that any of us on this board that carry have never thought about this.