cobb race VS open source pro/con

Prior to beginning this discussion, I want to preface it with the fact that (as most of you know) my wife is an IP attorney in Atlanta so I am surrounded by the influence and constant reminder of value in ones intellectual property.

With that said I am wondering what you guys think of open source tuning versus cobb race (pro).

I was talking with jeff at TPS and the topic came up that he chose open source tuning for his car instead of Cobb. When the question of why came up he said it was so that he could make changes after the fact, and that he had to make some (1-2psi reduction) due to weather changes.

I started thinking about that, and some other data points I would like to be able to manipulate myself (throttle blade angle, etc) for things like driveability on/off throttle which after all are really driver preference more then anything and decided to take a look at what I could do with my car.

Doug @ TSM tuned my car, and he used Cobb Race Tuner Pro i'm sure as he does on all the Cobb AP cars. When I fire up Access Tuner Race (non pro) and try to connect to my ECU, obviously I can't because the base map isn't right first of all, but in reviewing the logs it's clear that Cobb has technology in place to prevent this sort of "reverse tuner engineering".
Now I've done 0 research on the topic beyond that point, i'm sure there are dozens of threads on this but since I don't intend to pursue it I didn't go digging, however it puts me in a bit of a conundrum.

I do not want to share or critique the work that I literally paid doug to do to my car. Not only would that be infringement upon what I (and probably he) consider to be his intellectual property, but would undermine my investment in his superior knowledge of the hardware and software.
I do however want to change throttle blade angles, what the I/S/S# SI-Drive function does, and also get a feel for how my car is setup and what the margins are under different operating conditions. I don't personally think that this is an unrealistic request for a car owner in our sub-culture, and I know that the canned response will be "well you should have tuned it yourself then" and you would probably be right...... or would you?

Jeff's option made me really think about it. There IS a way to have someone like Doug bring his considerable tuning knowledge to bear on your car, while you still retain ultimate control (and obviously responsibility) over what you do after the fact. I don't know if Doug selectively tunes open source cars as a result of this, or how that even works. It would seem impossible to maintain IP security using that platform perhaps someone could tell me. I also don't know the limitations of the open source software VS cobb, and with my plans to go big turbo in the future and as a result most likely speed density what that will mean.

Also i'd just like to see how you guys feel about the topic in general.
To my knowledge Jeff was the first person I had met who had a ProTune on a Subaru, but without using the Cobb tuning platform. I'm sure there are plenty and that may be a noob symptom.
What should I do in this situation? Pestering doug every time I want a small change made for drivability reasons is an absurd use of his time and my finances. Am I just being unrealistic here? Is this an abnormal question?

 

I dont think it is actually Doug locking you out of your tune but Cobb that locks pro tunes out for use on Tuner Race.

Doug will tune opensource but I think he charges a little more time since it takes longer for him to tune than with an AP.

 

So I guess since it doesn't appear that he cares too much, I should just ask him if he can "unlock" the map he used for mine so I can edit things in ATR....

 

Cobb

Don't edit Doug's tune. Are you a better tuner?

/thread

 

That is just it...he doesnt have the ability to "unlock" it so your pro tune can be used in tuner race. That is a feature Cobb implements to protect the people that purchased Pro Tuner. I could be completely wrong but I remember something along those lines when I had the same issues with my pro tune.

 

Yeah you can't "unlock" the map from what I understand. You can buy the software itself if you really want to but it isn't cheap.

 

I already have the cobb.... actually nmind.
It seems that in spite of my extremely thorough and detailed first post, I was somehow still enormously misunderstood.

 

I understand what you are trying to do and I was in the exact same boat as you. I wanted to change my tip in myself but after some talking to Doug and Cobb it ended up that the only way I could do it myself is if I purchased Pro Tuner.

 

yeah I think robb just didn't read my entire post.... that was not like him at all.

I paid doug for his knowledge (and time) why would I change what he set? Clearly not my intention.
Besides the WRX's don't even have SI-Drive which is 85+% of what i'd like to be able to edit, which has NOTHING to do with safety or performance, but exclusively drive-ability and how the drive-by-wire feels so he may not be familiar with it..

anyways yeah it looks like i'm basically screwed i'm not buying ATR Pro just so I can edit 5 cells on my own map. I don't intend to be a tuner lol.

Well this was an interesting afternoon of discovery

 

Man I'm sorry. Irritated that I am out of town this week. I had a beer and now I am calmed down. Fail on my part.

On my phone so difficult to long post but there are a lot of reasons to go Cobb especially considering what you want to do powerwise. We can talk it over. Also...Doug does a lot on driveability so I don't know if I would touch those tables.

Again I'm sorry. Douchebag move.

 

Yes, Doug can tune you Open Source and then you can bring a laptop with you and make changes in parking lots.

 

And that fucking gorilla makes me laugh every time.

 

I'll probably stick with the cobb setup.... and I have complete faith in his abilities regarding the driveability but honestly what I might find appropriate might be different then you, him, etc since it's pretty subjective (the feel of the pedal)
It's really hard to say what i'm describing unless you drive it every day in varied conditions. It's a combination of needing that kart boy shifter, the bushings, the whiteline positive shift kit and some throttle blade angle changes.

Shifting just takes WAY too much effort (not physical effort) but you have to think about it way too much. Shifting in every other car i've driven is mindless once you memorize the engagement point of the clutch and the feel of the shifter. In my car you constantly fight with the engagement point (because the throttle blade keeps moving on you) which puts weird torque on the shifter (that you weren't expecting to feel) which makes the shift clunk or sometimes even grind.

anyway thanks for the thoughts, I wasn't aware that cobb locked the maps and not the tuner. I was under the impression it was a "check box" or something that the tuner could elect to use, or not use.

 

gorilla rules lol

 

to be honest ever since I got this car my only complaint quite literally has been why didn't they just keep the freakin throttle body CABLE on there and leave well enough alone.

and yes I know why, I just don't like the answer lol

 

He can and probably does lock the map so other tuners with pro tuner can't read his tune. But you can't even begin to read the map unless you have pro tuner.

 

AVO along with others may have part of your solution but it almost sounds like a short between right hand and left foot

 

AVO? Do tell.

Also, you may be right, I have to consider all possibilities.
However I did hold the record on 60ft times and ET in the 8th forever in Bristol TN and WNC among several hundred folks back when I was up there, i'm inclined to think I know how to drive but hey who knows.
Something just doesn't feel right though...

 

Subaru's are also rough. It is kind of just part of their personality.

 

AVO DBW controller and yes it will work along with the AP.

 

there are a few tricks that can be done to help with clutch feel, first is modify the clutch master cylinder and get a stiffer SS clutch line.

 

Wow this AVO controller is quite nifty.
I do have to wonder why it's necessary though and you can't just edit this stuff out in the ECU. Something to think about though, at least there is a solution.

 

Thread kinda died, but I have new information to add:

For ProTuners in Cobb's ProTuner network which make use of AccessTuner PRO, they have the ability when saving the map of saving it as an AccessTuner PRO file type, or AccessTuner RACE file type. This simple change when the tuner saves the map determines whether or not you, the vehicle owner, are able to load the map in AccessTuner RACE and view values, connect to your ECU for live tracing, etc.
It literally is a drop-down choice, is not hardcoded into the software, and is completely up to the ProTuner to decide on. Cobb does not mandate that the map be saved in either format in order to function properly.


With that said, I want to return to the original point of the thread which is this:

I go to TopSpeed for an opensource tune. Because that software doesn't permit "locking" the map in any way, TopSpeed is obligated to "trust" me, the vehicle owner, with their intellectual property.
I go to TopSpeed for a cobb AP tune. Because that software allows "locking" the map if the tuner decides to, I am not trusted with the intellectual property and the ability to view the parameters in my car is removed.

This seem's a bit.... strange. If protecting ones IP is the clear goal, don't do open source tunes at all. Since TopSpeed is more then willing to tune open source, I don't think protecting ones IP is the underlying goal which brings me to my main issue.
I want a TopSpeed tune, I want to keep my Cobb AP, but I also want an unlocked map. I have a feeling that if I request this, I'll get a pretty quick answer of "forget it".
However, based on what I just said, does that even make SENSE? What would keep me from turning right around and saying "ok, forget the AP then lets do this with ECUFlash".

 

Have you spoke with Topspeed about it? I imagine if you offer to have your wife draw up a quick Non-Disclosure agreement and you pay the extra for the open source tune (even though the AP would be faster) then it would be a reasonable offer. I understand where you are coming from; I also would want to be able make small adjustments to a tune throughout the year.

 

He is going to pay extra for opensource anyway because it does take longer and it is more of a PITA. Tuning is charged hourly.

 

Thanks guys, i'll reach out to Mike and discuss. I probably won't need anything until I upgrade my turbo / injectors but I really like discussing this and wanted to update the thread with the latest info I got back from a rep @ cobb tuning.