2013 STI Sedan EJ257 Rebuild Project

Well I have decided to rebuild my EJ257 in my garage after a dual piston-ring failure in #2 and #4 @ Stage2 for 17k miles.

Here is the history:
17,000ish miles
Invidia Downpipe w/high flow cat
Cobb SF intake & Airbox
#2 and #4 low compression, upon teardown confirmed broken rings on both

Goals:
400-450whp daily driveable with as much longevity as metallurgicaly possible. I will not be able to afford to buy the ETS rotated kit and FMIC yet, nor the fuel system required, so for now I will build the bottom end to handle it knowing I plan on installing that later.
I may or may not do headwork now and cams depending on your feedback and also cost. Cams for this motor are not cheap, and I know I won't benefit from much of this at all with the stock turbo / fuel system, but given my long term goals I don't want to do another tear down in the future. That alone may motivate me to get the headwork done now.


Items Obtained:
Mahle Pistons
Skat Rods
King bearings
Tigwerks air pump delete plates
Tigwerks oil pickup tube
Subaru OEM Gasket Kit
Subaru OEM Timing Belt
TiC holy shift kit
Kartboy short shifter (keeping SPT linkage)
Defi boost gauge
Defi oil pressure gauge
LC-1 DB Red wideband gauge



What I need:
TGV Deletes
Spark Plugs
Engine Stand, air tools, any special tools for subaru teardown / rebuild
Any other input welcome as long as it's constructive, and not critical (if you don't have anything good to say, don't say nuthin`)

Thanks in advance for those already offering help, tools and assistance. This is such a great community and times like this really solidify that!

Piston #4 After Removal

Piston #2 After Removal

The Workspace

The trip to Ball Engines

New Scat Rods


Case Halves Ready For Honing


Crank Ready For Balancing

Tigwerks Oil Pickup Tube


Heads Ready For Re-Install

Interior Ready For Gauge Install

 

Honestly if you were to scale that hp down to the low 400 range this endeavor will become much cheaper, better longevity, and most of all driveability.
Having had a subaru over 500 wheel I can tell you it is not very daily driveable.

If that acceptable you could skip the rods and concentrate elsewhere.

 

Good luck with the build man. The only input I can give with some confidence is that you should use the OEM timing belt as the gates are slightly longer or shorter and therefore harder to get on.

 

Yeah this decision didn't come easy to be honest, I talked with doug a lot about it over dinner a month or two ago. My use of the car I think is a lot different then most - in that I really want my boost to come on a lot later and hit a lot harder. In stock form or with a turbo similarly sized you end up building boost quite often which for me is not desired.

I want to be pulling vac most of the time i'm driving around, and the thing snap your neck off when provoked. Obviously i'll try to get as much area under the curve as possible, but since I don't plan to track, Auto-X or anything like that I won't really need it down low.

500hp was picked just as a goal, since I have to set one somehow. It isn't written in stone by any means. I just don't want to UNDER-build and end up rebuilding again. I'd rather spend the money now, do it right, and sleep better (and boost harder) :wiggle:

 

500whp is a tall order if you want to do it reliably you are going to need a big turbo, GTX30R will get you most of the way there and drives much better than a GTX35R. The GTX35R with a 82 backside should make over 500whp on pump. (I made 500whp on a GTX30R on pump but it was on the Ragged edge).

GSC S2s are really the only cam to get, The GSC springs are nice and reasonably priced.

Pistons....Mahle

Rods... Get ready to spend some money. All the available cheap H-Beams are crap. Buy either Pauters, Carrilos(The H Beams), Cosworth, etc. You are going to Spend $1000 dollars on rods. Don't be cheap with the rods.

Bearings, Use the newest version of Kings Performance bearings.

Use a factory timing belt, the marks are right and they never have issues.


Now that all thats been said. If you want a 500whp daily driver that is never going to have issues, sell the Subaru and buy a corvette. 500whp Subarus have issues, even if you do everything right they have issues.

 

Cams for sure,

Porting.

Its easier to screw it up than do it right. You need someone that knows what they are doing. Just a little posting in the bowl area and cleaning up the casting does wonders.

 

500hp capable with as much reliability as you can expect is going to cost you $4000+.

I'd back the power goals down. We've all been there. Keep the heads stock, do a GTX30R, drop in pistons, stock rods, 400-450 hp and call it a day.

Seriously this is the wrong car and a very expensive habit to keep up with the jones (500hp folk).

 

yeah, I really just want to do it once, do it right type of thing. I may not end up reaching 500whp on 93, but the reason I set that goal is so that I won't skimp on things just because my goals are lower.
Honestly with the SI-Drive I planned on using it as a glorified electronic boost controller once tuned, and only seldom get into S# when needed (max boost).

Do you really think that even with 450whp the stock rods are reliable? Launching, flat foot shifting, all that jazz? I just don't want to have to worry about it is all. All I do now is worry, I guess that's inevitable after a motor grenades when you weren't even pushing it hard.

 

also, and I don't want to sidetrack myself onto turbo talks too much because I can't afford to get any of that yet anyway, but I hear no mention of the precision turbo's? 6262, 6266, etc.
Is there a reason? just overpriced for no benefit or what?

 

My car rode at 480 hp pump gas and 530 Q16. Stock rods in it.

 

Listen to Rick and Matt.....If you enjoy driving your car and it being reliable, 500whp should not be a goal.

Nothing wrong with the newer precision turbos....the 6266 is supposed to be the bomb but after going that route once, I would stick with a GTX turbo.

If this was my car and knowing what I know now, this is what I would go with.

Forged Pistons (Mahle)
Stock Rods
King or ACL Bearings
Killer B Oil Pickup
Oil Pump Mod (Since I believe you have the bigger oil pump already)
STOCK head gasket
Supertech Inconel Exhaust Valves
Supertech SS Intake Valves
Valve Springs/Retainers
GSC S2 cams
ID 1000cc injectors
either a big stock location turbo or a GTX3076 rotated kit.
Should be good for mid 400's on pump and a little over 500 on race. Anything more and I think you will not enjoy driving it everyday.

This should keep it tame and still driveable.

I am with Matt though....cut your loses sell the car and get a C6 Z06....Low 12's high 11's stock!?!?! Plus parts for the car are stupid cheap and any redneck can work on it.

 

Sometimes stock rods will take it sometimes they won't....

500+whp on pump is going to cost way for than $4000, you will have more than that in the engine. If you want to do a 500+whp setup thats reliable..on pump start keeping comfortable with spending closer to 20k.

 

If you just want fast and fun buy a 12000 c5 corvette, spend 5-7000 on a built 408 clutch and various upgrades, it will make 500whp on pump and will last for the next 5 years.

Assuming you don't want to do that and you want to keep the Subaru Ill post up the three setups I've seen that work. Give me a minute.

 

And hold onto your wallet :naughty: :rofl:

 

400-420whp setup
Dom 1.5
Pistons (I would do Mahle 4032 if you are never going to turn it up)
GSC S1s
GSC Valve Springs
GSC 1mm oversize Valves
Very light Port
1000-1600cc injectors
Blah blah blah...you know all the other stuff
I would say you can do this setup on a budget for 7k-10k

420-470whp
GTX30R Rotated Kit
The rest is the same as above
except GSC S2s
Front Mount
(I would do rods etc...because at some point you will want to pour race gas in and turn it up) This is still a 12k-15k setup to do it properly

500whp on pump
Precision 6466
Fully Built Engine, Mahle 2618 Pistons, Carrillo Rods, Billet Crank, Sleeves, ARP 625+ Head Studs, Machine work to do this whole setup right is around $1400.
By the time you get everything that is needed to do this setup properly and for it to live at 500whp daily and not have issues its going to cost close to 20k.

This still isn't the kind of setup that runs for 6 years and 100k miles trouble free. It just doesn't happen with Subarus.

 

All that said, I don't think that most people are going to be any happier with the GTX setup than they would be with the Dom 1.5.

Same applies to the 6466 vs GTX30R.

I loved my GTX setup though, its a beast you rarely run into something faster than that.

 

Matt said it best there is no such thing as a reliable 500hp subaru engine. even if there were it would be some stupid crap like post maf leak gone unnoticed or the like. One thing I found long ago in my persuit of besting Superhawk28 back in the 2.0l days and on up, you WILL get used to any amount of power THESE cars put out in less than a month and want more.

All that being said, Eddie's setup sounds sweet.

Now that the race car is gone my next step is a Dom 1.5 on my current setup and I don't want to exceed 400hp even if it is capable of it.

 

Do you have any idea how bad the OEM block is? Is it scuffed/scratched up any at all?


The longest lasting Forged EJ257 I have ever seen was probably Kokopelli's first (I think it was the first one) built engine. Had the 4032 Mahle pistons in it and stock rods. 400+ hp for (iirc?) 70-80k miles?

 

Never ever put a Subaru block together without honing it first. I don't care if its drop ins, A light hone brakes the glaze on the cylinder walls and lets the rings seat properly.

 

Well first of all thanks a ton for contributing to the discussion guys, I really appreciate the feedback and priceless opinions based on experience.

Rods are pretty expensive, so if I can get away with not using them, I think that would help a lot.
Also I started to think about what my numbers were before (300whp/340wtq) after doug's tune, and how that felt. Honestly I was pretty happy with it, I just wanted more up top for highway pulls.
With that said, jumping 120-150whp (420-450) would probably be a HUGE jump. I know you get used to any power level, just like you said, but I really do think i'd be happy with that. Part of me is just chasing a vanity plate that I can put "500whp" on and not be lying :|

Regarding a cheap vette, I came from the small and big block V8 world for the last 10yrs with this being my last frankenstein project http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GIAzkdr5w&noredirect=1
I need a 4dr car, love the AWD, and always wanted a tuner turbo 4cyl so I am pretty set on this car.

I think I will lower my goals a bit so that I can run the stock rods. I'll be bolting all of it back together with the VF52 for now anyway and my process west TMIC. I just want to build it right so when I go rotated (turbo yet undecided) it will be ready for it.

 

can i do a ball hone? or does it need to be done at the machine shop?
cylinder walls looked and felt perfect, could still see the cross hatch pattern in them

 

Yeah I looked into these but 09 was the last year.
I would have to find one, etc, plus I don't know much about them.

just too much to do while on borrowed time in a rental car

not to mention I really love the STI (when it's running) inside and out. it's a sexy beast of a car

 

I would split the block and have it honed at a machine shop. Then you can get it honed with a torque plate the walls will be straight that way and you will get could ring seal.

 

wow that's really cheap, automatic though
the complications with first putting my car back together, trying to sell it (or trade it if it's a dealership sale) just all seem overwhelming at this point.

 

First off....dont ever chase after a number....ask me how I know.

Second, if you did hit 500WHP and you got a vanity plate and put it on your car, I will personally drive over to your house and punch you in the nutz.

 

Just tell Doug to alter the temp settings on the dyno.....it'll say 500 hp in no time.

 

lol uncorrected all the way!

edited OP with new revised goals based on input / advice.
Stock rods, and 400-450whp as the goal.
I know I could do that pretty cheaply with a stock location turbo, but I just think rotated setups when using a FMIC are just much less heat soak prone, and generally the heat under there has more places to go then when it's all packed together like stock location is.

Oh, and it looks way cooler

 

rotated setups can breathe easier with cooler air.

I definately recommend a phenolic spacer (just don't get ixiz spacers...). They drastically reduce the heat soak that goes into the intake manifold....so much that you can grab it with your hand regardless of how many pulls you do.

Your intake manifold is still metal right? I know the WRX is plastic.

 

Yep got the metal one (red powdercoated STI one)
I am going to do TGV deletes probably, so i'll put spacers on with those if needed depending on the kind of deletes I get.

 

The TIC plastic TGVs are nice. I think I have a extra set sitting around if you need them. Eliminates the need for the spacers.

I would rather have a roated setup, Its a properly sized turbo and it works like designed.

The ETS setup looks nice, if they offer it with the Tial Vband housings its worth the money to upgrade.

 

I'm doing the same thing as you. Except I bought a forged block... and got 40 mi out of it.

I had a motor built at Outfront but they didn't clean the metal shavings from my oil passages after decking the heads. 15mi in I threw a CEL. Datalogged it and AVCS gear was seized. After removing it metal shaving were all inside of it and the oil pan.

I need new bearings and a crank, but the machine work is still good.

I can tell you I had King XPG std bearings in the mains and King XPG stdx extra clearance rod bearings.

I checked the ring gap, but without a torque plate I don't know how accurate it is. I can get you the numbers I measured.

There is a good youtube video by some master subaru tech building a block in his driveway. He gives good pointers on the the details of fitting the halves together and where to apply sealer.

The FSM you want can be downloaded anywhere, and it doesn't have to be '13 specific for the engine work.

 

Hey remember that H6 ez30 swap you talked about... Now would be the time to do it.

 

Lol I had that one coming.

 

If you got em, I'll take them let me know what they are worth to ya.

 

Justin that sucks man. I'm going to check mine pretty good although I'm pretty sure no metal got anywhere. The rings were intact until removed from the bore.

I got everything home in the back of Shiveh's impreza except the block downpipe and underguard. Oh and the car too lol.

 

Seriously, have Allpro find a wrecked TriBeCa or outback and obtain the motor and purchase a standalone ecu. Enjoy it NA stock power for awhile while piecing together a decent turbo/twin turbo setup for it.

 

My question is why it cracked 2 piston ringlands. Bad gas? Were you hearing audible detonation? What fp and injectors were you running?(last one is a personnel question)

Oh yeah, another vote for stock rods and leaving things more mild.

 

I know tigworks does some realy nice piping if you want to piece together your own Rotated kit. Probably the best I have seen and really affordable. I always try to reccomend a rotated setup vs a big stock location turbo. It really isnt anymore money once you factor in all of the supporting mods for a big stock location turbo and so much more potential for more HP and much easier to work on. Vband all the way!

 

stock fuel system, stock injectors.
No audible det, no logged det, same gas I always use.
Of course the failure could have happened earlier on a different tank of gas or something and taken it's time to fully manifest itself in the form of poor drive-ability, etc.


In other news, we took the 2nd head off my motor and I saw the two pistons that had GOOD compression.
They had so much carbon deposits on them, you could flake it off with your fingernail.
I told them that a lack of AOS contributed to this, no one wanted to listen to me (at subaru that is).
I told them it would increase combustion chamber temps and cause pre-det, which had NOTHING to do with my tune or light mods.

Meh, not trying to rehash that, just kinda pissed me off when I pulled the head off and saw that.

 

Yeah I saw a tigworks car in the topspeed subforum. It was someone on here's car if I recall, and made a lot of power too.
I may end up doing that, although the ETS stuff just looks amazing for this car. Their GTR stuff is pretty top notch from what I can tell also.

 

Yeah both ETS and AMS make amazing rotated setups for Subarus.

 

Kelly that owns Tigwerks does amazine stuff, that would be my preference, if not then AMS and ETS in that order. With Tigwerks you can get him to taper it from the manifold outlet to the turbo inlet so increase the speed of the exhaust gas. Cant do that with the others but they are still good.

 

Not trying to sway one way or another...but this will give you an idea on how just the Dom 1.5 can act on pump gas. Throw e85 in the tank and you will be even closer to your goal with a turbo that is a great daily and semi reliable setup.



Rotated with v-band is awesome. 500whp on pump in a Subaru will not be reliable in the long run just as people have said here. Stock turbos fall on their face on the top end where an well chosen aftermarket will not. It is really unrealistic to have a Subaru as a highway pull car in my opinion. Can you build one that does? Yes...but reliability becomes a huge issue just even trying to keep up with a lot of stock cars around here (like the mentioned stock Vette). Also, flat foot shifting and launching regularly will always cause issues. It is a shock to the system. There are people who do it sparingly at the track and don't have issues...but those that do it a lot always do.

Another thing to think about...with a car that boosts really late...you are going to have to brake boost the crap out of the car on the highway to even have a chance. Otherwise, you are going to get smoked every time. Having driven a PTE6266 hatch before, I can tell you the car feels slow as hell without that. You also have to do a lot of headwork to increase the RPM range to widen the useable power and make sure when you shift you are dropping back into the strong part of the power curve. A huge turbo without the headwork is really kind of worthless IMO because the powerband is so incredibly short.

Here is a video of the PTE6266 that I drove.

[youtube]ylSSoJ0uW5A[/youtube]

[youtube]b8lPsTiY-5Y[/youtube]

As a comparison...here is the same car on a 20g with e85

[youtube]WIakkW2ujfE[/youtube]

 

Robb I'd like to see the full graph of your Dom. Same as above just want to see the HP level on the left side
/Thread jack

 

That one above is mine.

Edit: you need the left data on the graph. Its early! I'll try to get it today.

 

I just bought a tigwerks kit and have hashed through all the above kits mentioned.

I will say there is only one more I'd add to the mix, a used crawford on NASIOC

I talked to Kelly and his prices are great for what he is making. He quoted me a header, the rotated kit and had a new gt35r with the tial housing all for an awesome price. He builds the uppipes from 321SS and if you're baller he'll do inconel ones.

I lucked out with a used one as I did not want a 35r... so he still has the whole kit he quoted me if you want something like that.

I just did this build this year with an ets kit.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2483516
it was alright. As we assembled it we had to have ets overnight us a few things as they put some of the wrong pipes in. Alot of people don't like how high the turbo sits... all I know is that would add some piping length (lag). It was a complete kit and they were there for support. No instructions are included so its like a 1000 piece puzzle.

The AMS kit is unique I can't find anything on their old GTX kits, but one is for sale used but its still $3300 (tigwerks is less) The uppipe is cast which is unique. Aside from that I don't really know what you are paying for.

The day before I got my kit I almost bought a used Crawford 30r kit. I hate crawford but the kit is impressive. Flex sections in both pipes, EWG recircs to dp, already ceramic coated, support brackets to reduce stress. The used kit had their "install kit" so all lines and heat shields were included for $2100

That one was a lot cheaper and I was looking for something closer to the 30r, I got the exact kit I wanted with the tigwerks and it is very nice to have all the options Kelly provides. You can have it built your way.

I'll add this and shut up.

I had a highly modded stock location setup and sold all of it in a weekend and it paid for most of my rotated kit.
Headers (3bolt)
IAG EWG uppipe
Hard inlet
intake
downpipe
turbo in need of a rebuild

 

Do NOT EVER run e85.......PERIOD. Don't ever run methanol. Been there done that.

Anything other that pure standard 93 octane or C16/Q16 is nothing but a major catastrophe waiting to happen......it's another BOOM oh crap my motor blew.

Sorry but people telling you put in e85 is laughable when I know your sole intent is to make this engine reliable (as reliable as can be). e85 is so inconsistant that you constantly need to adjust the tune unless you install some sort of flex fuel sensor and even then I haven't seen any reliable long term solutions. I have seen so many awesome cars running on e85 but they are usually always having issues down the road.

Now the Dom 1.5 is an awesome turbo but also consider the tq drop that it shows. Now take a properly sized and built turbo (many off the shelf rotated turbos aren't that great and slowwrx can pick some awesome turbos....07Ltd's turbo was a great one) and you should see that tq curve flatten out.