On the Dyno at TSM!

Discussion in 'TopSpeed Motorsports' started by Taylor@TSM, Feb 9, 2016.

  1. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    It has right around 82,000 miles on it currently. Its tough to say, since it depends on a lot of factors. I have stock EJ205, EJ255, and EJ257 motors running around with 400whp give or take, many of which have been running for 50k+ miles at that power level, and some with over 150k miles on the enegine. E85 is the main factor that holds them together, but there are some other things on the setups that help too.
     
  2. Matto357

    Matto357 Crazyazn likes Naps Staff Member

    I've always been curious how much of a difference the insanely high octane makes in regards to avoiding cracked piston ringlands. All other things being the same how much did you leave on the table because it wasn't a built block. i.e. if you had some drop-ins what would you have pushed it to?
     
  3. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Its not just octane. Octane has very little to do with the benefits of E85 actually. A race fuel like C16 will always be able to be tuned to make more power a bit safer than 93 because of octane alone, but E85 will allow you to push farther with a much higher safety margin. The fact that it requires more physical volume in the cylinder (lower stoichiometric value) and that it burns at a lower BTU are just a couple of the factors that help keep the EGT's cool and the engine happy, while being able to run more boost, higher ignition timing, and just all around being able to lean on the car harder while still staying safe.

    I am going to use a stock motor Subaru for example here, and this is my opinion, however also backed up by facts by many cars I have tuned as well as cars others have tuned. I am a firm believer in the fact that a 400whp stock engine Subaru tuned on E85 is safer and will last longer than a 350whp stock engine Subaru tuned on pump gas. Excessive combustion heat and detonation are what cause most of the damage to an engine. There is a lot more depth to this whole topic, but this at least gives a basic overview.

    As for the car above, I wouldn't have been able to pick up much on a built motor as it sat. 10-15whp maybe. The stock intake, TMIC, and catted downpipe were becoming a restriction as well as running out of wastegate duty. If we adjusted the wastegate actuator a bit I could have probably ran it up to 24 lbs fairly efficiently and got a bit more aggressive and most likely made somewhere in the 420-430whp range, but the catted downpipe and stock parts would really start restricting it there. The catted downpipe will start to cause excessive heat and you will start to see diminishing returns. With a catless downpipe,header, better IC setup, and an intake on a built engine we typically see in the 450-470whp range on 25-26 lbs if the customer wants that out of it. Add a front mount IC and a good equal length header and you can make a bit more if the setup is paired correctly, as seen on the 504whp Dom 1.5 we did rcently.

    Sorry if this got a bit long!
     
  4. Hindsight

    Hindsight New Member

    Never too long - more info is always appreciated. Thank you.
     
  5. Trancetto

    Trancetto Active Member

    time to find a e85 gas station near me.....

    What is all required to run e85?
     
  6. superhawk28

    superhawk28 Member

    Bigger injectors, maybe a better fuel pump depending on what you got. And you must replace all your fuel filters....E85 is very corrosive. It's not good for longevity in the long run.
     
  7. Trancetto

    Trancetto Active Member

    I was just wondering if it was worth it, considering that the nearest e85 gas station is 9 miles away. What do you mean not good for longevity... the corrosion over time might damage the block?

    I'm guessing that some people store e85 at home as well due to bad MPG and gas stations being out of reach...
     
  8. superhawk28

    superhawk28 Member

    Corrosion to anything it touches, it will get out gaskets and rubber seals quickly.....not to mention the constant variation of blends....they swing quite a bit. Talk to integroid about his experiences with e85....I have seen him state that going to e85 was the biggest mistake he ever made.
     
  9. Superdude

    Superdude Active Member

    Now he can finally monkey with the SM car he's holding back on. No excuses now that it's pretty much a race car.
     
  10. Trancetto

    Trancetto Active Member

    In that case, never mind. It sounded promising at first.
     
  11. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Basically injectors, a fuel pump, and a tune. Nothing else needed unless you are running it in a car from like the 1980's or older. I would say don't leave it sit for long periods of time (like a year) in your tank without driving the car or draining it, and isn't a bad idea to pull the injectors out every year or so and simply have them cleaned for good measure.

    Out of the 100+ of cars I've tuned on E85 the usual responses I get are "Why didn't I do this sooner?!", "The car just overall feels smoother", and my favorite "I just pulled a bus length on my buddy with the same mods that you tuned on 93". I've never once had a customer or friend who can perform regular maintenance tell me they wanted to go back to pump gas, unless they were moving somewhere where there was no E85, and then I would get the text message asking how much it would cost to ship some to them since they were having withdrawals lol. And I would say before I moved here, a GOOD 80% or more of the cars I tuned were converted to E85, and that is across all platforms. Subarus, Evos, Hondas, Ecotecs, LS guys, Caliber/Neon SRTs, etc.

    I have personally ran nothing but E85 in my car since 2008. Not a single tank of pump gas has been ran through it in nearly 8 years. I have friends and customers with the same story.
     
  12. Trancetto

    Trancetto Active Member

    What is your input on the corrosion topic? Have you experienced or had customers who may had the issue with seals..
     
  13. superhawk28

    superhawk28 Member

    Perhaps the issues with corrosion I stated had to do more with the older models and not so much with newer models. I'd be more worried about the swing in the winter blends.
     
  14. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    In my personal experience with it I've never run across any major issues. Like I stated make sure to not leave it sitting in the tank for extended periods of time and it is also good to clean the injectors once a year or so just as preventative maint. On older cars it is good to run new fuel lines and to switch out any o rings in the fuel system that may still be factory. On newer cars, even if they aren't "flex fuel" approved I haven't seen any major issues with the fuel system components not handling E85. It is more corrosive and is a "dirtier" fuel. Nothing inside the engine itself is at any danger of any of the potential corrosion. You'd be amazed at how much cleaner it burns and how quickly it will deteriorate the carbon buildup that occurs with normal gasoline.

    In the past there have definitely been more issues than now days. You'd be amazed at how far the injector and fuel pump technology has come in the past few years. Also the fact that the fuel quality has come to be controlled much better as well. As for the winter blend swing, in the south there is a very minor blend swing. We saw as low as 77% this winter, which on even a non flex fuel car isn't much of a swing. I always tune accordingly to make sure there is a safety cushion for any of the minor blend swings. On a Cobb flex fuel equipped car no matter what blend you have in the tank, from E0 to E100 you can make sure the car is fully compensated and the fueling is always dead on. Technology is awesome lol
     
  15. superhawk28

    superhawk28 Member

    How does that work? Is there some sensor that is installed to measure the ethanol?
     
  16. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Yep, exactly. There is an ethanol content sensor that goes in the feed line and is read through an input to the ECU. Then you tune for the lowest ethanol content you'll be running (usually E10 93) and the highest (E85 for most street cars), and then setup the blending tables how you want them for compensation. Its cool because it can do more than just fueling adjustment. It lets you control your boost, timing, and open loop fueling tables based on what ethanol content it has in it. This just came out for the Subaru's about 2 months ago.
     
  17. wEaK Squad

    wEaK Squad Member

    You guys are hilarious

    I poured e85 in my car last October, and by thanksgiving j had to replace my entire fuel system plus every engine seal. That stuff is no joke.
     
  18. Trancetto

    Trancetto Active Member

    hmm..... well I was almost convinced again.
     
  19. Hindsight

    Hindsight New Member

    What engine seals did you have to replace?
     
  20. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Says the guy with a 800+whp STi that ONLY runs on E85 :rofl:

    Thats Justin, he's just trolling lol
     
  21. Matto357

    Matto357 Crazyazn likes Naps Staff Member

    Ya'll done got trolled.
     
  22. wEaK Squad

    wEaK Squad Member

    Lol in reality I daily drove my dom1.5 corn setup for over a year with only injectors and a non ethanol safe pump. No issues
     
  23. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    We recently had a customer return for a retune with a new turbo on his 2014 WRX. We built this car a while back and he just ran the stock turbo for a while, but was ready for more!

    The setup consists of:

    TSM SS1 short block
    HTA71 stock location journal bearing turbo
    3" catless downpipe
    Intake
    Process West TMIC
    3 port EBCS
    Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors + DW65c pump
    Stock catback mid section with aftermarket axleback + mufflers

    93 Octane, 21.5 psi falling to 20.5: 387whp/387wtq

    I was pleased considering this turbo costs around $800 brand new, and if the customer decides to have us make an E85 map it should easily reach 450whp. It feels great on the street paired with the WRX gearing. The power comes up pretty quick and holds strong to redline.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  24. superhawk28

    superhawk28 Member

    I wanna see/read/watch this RedLine that I have heard about of yours.
     
  25. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    I drive it almost every day, its out there! haha. Its a sh*tbox, but it does alright :)
     
  26. Hindsight

    Hindsight New Member

    No 10 second car is a sh*tbox. I say sleeper.
     
  27. wEaK Squad

    wEaK Squad Member

  28. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    I've never ran 10's in it :wtc: But I've only drag raced it once since it's been turbo'd.
     
  29. digitizedsoul

    digitizedsoul Moderation is a vice Supporting Member

    Justin be like, while ur spinnin` i'll be winnin`.
     
  30. wEaK Squad

    wEaK Squad Member

  31. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    He will be spinnin right next to me haha. Then I'll see his tail lights.
     
  32. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    We just had a 2015 STi come back in to get tuned on its new Dom 1.5. This was a full bolt ons car that was on stock turbo until recently. It picked up a TON of power from just the turbo swap, and I built in a lot of safety features into the map to keep this 380whp pump gas stock engine car running as reliably as possible :)

    Perrin Intake
    Process West TMIC
    UEL header to 3" TBE
    3 port EBCS
    Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors
    AEM 320 E85 drop in pump

    93 octane pump gas
    19.5 psi peak boost.

    This car came into boost so quickly, so I managed the "hit" down low to a flat tq curve to keep the shock out of the engine to not stress the stock engine in the low rpms.

    [​IMG]

    I also overlaid the graph with the graph of the same car on the stock turbo. The spool difference is almost nonexistent! Pay close attention to the power curves, as this is often overlooked. So many people look at a dyno graph and only look at the peak numbers, which we all know on subarus especially the tq curve on a stock turbo is pretty peaky and falls off hard by redline.

    Like I said I managed this car so it only makes 20 more wtq PEAK over the stock turbo, but by 5,000 rpms the stock turbo is falling off so hard that the Dom 1.5 makes 60wtq more and by 6,000 rpms its making 80wtq more. Not to mention by redline the Dom 1.5 is making over 100whp more! This car makes use of the whole rpm range, with much more usable power than the stock turbo!

    [​IMG]

    I apologize if this got a bit long winded. I just wanted to share a little bit of what I take into consideration when tuning each vehicle and how I do my best to tailor each calibration specifically for what each car is used for, and what the customer wants out of it inside its capable boundaries :)

    [​IMG]
     
  33. digitizedsoul

    digitizedsoul Moderation is a vice Supporting Member

    Those turbo's never stop impressing.
     
  34. SubieEngineer

    SubieEngineer Member

    ^ Really makes me wish I'd gone with the 8cm over the 10cm while I had my 1.5. :(
     
  35. wEaK Squad

    wEaK Squad Member

    10cm ftw
     
  36. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    I'm always a fan of the 10cm. Just so much more potential. The spool difference is very minimal. Most people wouldn't notice the spool difference on the street.
     
  37. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    We got Justin's (wEaK Squad) STi on the dyno last night! Pushed it a little bit and then picked back up this morning. We are running out of wastegate spring pressure so we left it hitting 48 lbs and falling to 46 lbs by peak power. We will eventually get some more spring pressure in there and report back ;)

    The goodies:
    Outfront Motorsports closed deck V4 shortblock
    Manley platinum series pistons w/large wrist pin
    Manley Turbo Tuff w/ARP 625 rod bolts
    2015 STi crank
    ARP case bolts
    Head Games ported heads
    Kelford D 280 cams
    Tomei exhaust cam gears
    GSC valves
    Ferrea drag spec springs/retainers
    Intake AVCS only
    ARP 1/2" head studs
    JE ProSeal gaskets
    Forced Performance Super 99
    Killer B EL header
    TSM forward facing uppipe
    ETS 4" FMIC
    TSM 3" intercooler piping
    Process West intake manifold
    Boomba 75mm throttle body
    TSM TGV deletes
    Injector Dynamics 2000cc injectors
    Fore Innovations fuel pressure regulator
    TSM fuel rails
    3-Walbro 485 high pressure fuel pump setup
    Radium triple surge tank
    Driveshaft Shop carbon driveshaft and level 5 axles
    Andrewtech assembled PPG billet shift forks, selectors, fingers, and carbon synchros
    TSM catch can
    TSM electric power steering pump
    TSM rear diff catch can
    Aluminati billet trans mount & pitch stop mount
    MSI billet engine mounts
    Killer B oil pan, pickup, & windage tray
    Competition twin disk clutch
    TSM 4" "shawty" exhaust
    Cobb Tuning AccessPort V3

    Taylor@TSM Tuned

    E85 from the pump - 48 psi peak tapering to 46 psi: 901whp/693wtq

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We plan to start hitting the track soon, so we will keep everyone updated! Thanks for the support! :)
     
  38. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    We recently built this 2015 STi and got it in for its final tune after some break in miles!

    The build consists of:

    TopSpeed SS1 shortblock
    Cobb 20G stock location turbo
    Front mount intercooler
    Killer B equal length header
    3" catless turboback exhaust
    Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors
    Tuned via Cobb AP V3

    93 octane - 22.5 psi tapering to 21 psi: 402whp/408wtq

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This car is about to get Cobb Flex Fuel for an E85 tune as well, so I'll post an update when that happens!
     
  39. Drowland87

    Drowland87 Staff Member Supporting Member

    Very nice! What did the injector duty cycle get up to if you don't mind me asking?
     
  40. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    72% IDC was the highest I saw on this run.
     
  41. Drowland87

    Drowland87 Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nice and safe :) I figured it couldn't have been much more than that with 1000s. Smooth curve and nice numbers! What fuel pump is it running?
     
  42. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Yeah the 1000's on 93 are just getting going at this power level. He is on a factory style regulator as well, but that will change when he goes E85. It has an Aeromotive 340lph pump in it.
     
  43. Drowland87

    Drowland87 Staff Member Supporting Member

    Well that's really good numbers for a relatively simple build, great job sir.
     
  44. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Thought I'd post this 2016 STi that we tuned the other day. This was a basic bolt ons car with Cobb's Flex Fuel kit. I first tuned the car on 93 and then swapped the fuel over to E85 to work on that portion of the tune. The ethanol content was around 78% while on the dyno.

    Parts included:
    UEL header
    3" catless downpipe
    Stock catback with Nameless muffler deletes
    K&N Intake
    3-port EBCS
    AEM 320 fuel pump
    Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors
    Cobb Flex Fuel kit
    Tuned via Cobb AP V3

    E85 - 21.5 psi peak falling to 14: 352whp/421wtq

    93 oct - 19.5 psi falling to 14: 304whp/347wtq

    [​IMG]

    E85 vs 93 graph overaid
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  45. Drowland87

    Drowland87 Staff Member Supporting Member

    E85 is magic! Cobb needs to come out with GD flex fuel already!
     
  46. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Its still pretty easy and convenient to have two separate maps on the accessport too ;) Just not quite as convenient as "flex fuel", but 100% worth it to have the E85 capabilities.
     
  47. Drowland87

    Drowland87 Staff Member Supporting Member

    Ya... The E85 pump down the street from you guys is the closest one to me and I'm 20+ minutes north. So it's not that big of a deal, it would just be nice to have access to.
     
  48. Taylor@TSM

    Taylor@TSM Member

    Fill up a few spare fuel cans to keep at home to eliminate the need to get to the pump as often. Keep that stock engine happy, and give it what it wants!
     
  49. Drowland87

    Drowland87 Staff Member Supporting Member

    lol, it's tempting. I'll be up there a week from today.
     
  50. wEaK Squad

    wEaK Squad Member

    Or fill up a barrel for $100 and keep it in the garage. Over 4 tanks worth
     

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