E85 at local pump...

i was at BP off clairmont rd (right accross Sam's Club) and there it was...10% in reg and mid grade...then straight 85% Ethenol and 15% gas, where 93 used to be. I remember reading articles about it that it hold less energy, has higher octane rating, and pre-2007 cars can't really run it on daily basis unless one upgrades the fuel system. My question is....will it be safe to run the E85 (85%E / 15% gasoline) on track days, run nights? Just once in a while?

 

Why would you want to?

 

it reduces power. and you have to be tuned for it..

 

It wouldn't be a good idea. From what I understand, you'd need new injectors to use it, part of the "conversion kits" out there.

 

won't it be safe to run it when driving the car hard...higher octane advantage. Only draw back i am seeing is that i am gonna go through it pretty quick.

P.S I don't know much about E85...reason i posted.

 

hmmm so just can't use regular injectors? They have some kind of special injectors? I know i would need bigger injectors to pump out more hp.
I currently running 565cc injectors, and 255 fuel pump. I know E85 map is a must if i am gonna be doing this often, but will it cause any harm if i use it once in a blue moon? How will i loose power?

 

nah, wouldnt be e85 = less powaaaa as far as i know.

 

i don't really understand how car would loose power....i am not really looking for gain either. My concern is, the higher octane rating (105) will cause less detonation/knock...meaning safer for the engine under load????

 

you need 30 % more fuel to reach the same AFR as with gas.

thats why you get less mileage ...

 

E85 is the dumbest idea ever. So to answer your question, E85 does in fact have a higher Octane, but all Octane measures is a measure of anti-detonation of a gasoline or fuel. This is to make sure you don't get detonation in a cylinder. When a cylinder fires it is a more or less "controlled explosion" but detonation is a much more intense explosion that destroys your car. This is why higher compression ratio motors use higher octane fuel.

So why would you lose power? Its all in the Stoichiometric efficiency of a fuel. I don't know the last time you took chemistry but Stoichiometry is when you have a reaction (in this case Fuel+Gas yields Emission byproducts), and you have to balance the component elements of the reaction. Because of the molecular structure of E85, there are less hydrocarbons than what we think of as normal gas. So all things being equal, you actually have burn MORE E85 fuel to get the SAME power as normal gas.

Also, unless you have the special fuel components, E85 will degrade all the rubber hoses and gaskets in your fuel system in a hurry. If you want more power do the 93 octane plus tulene (paint thinner) to get a higher octane gas. The media tries to sell E85 as some miracle fuel but creates more C02 during its production than normal gas, plus your MPG goes way down, and on top of all that it is a factor that is adding to the huge rise in food costs across the world. Epic Fail.

 

Thanks i really didnt want to type all that up.

 

so quater tank of 93oct then quater of e85 with 15% gasoline. That will give me about 65% gasoline and 35% Ethenol. Pretty much...mix them up as long as i stay 40%+ gasoline. Will i be safely be able to pump that in the car? I know E85 tends to run leaner, but my car is runnig rich as a mofo to begin with so it sould able to compensate some.

 

i dont get why the hell you want to run e85.

 

if you running rich, get it tuned. no point in running e85.

 

and waht do you mean run leaner? you mean in terms of fuel quantity gas > e85

 

back to post 1.....i was asking since it has higher octane rating, why wouldn't be it safe to run rarely since there will be less detonation and is already at pumps. Example....meet up to do some runs, right before pump 1/8 tank of E85 and 1/8 (or 1/4) tank of 93oct to get higher octane rating and keep things on the safe(?) side...more than likely i'll burn all of it during the runs. Then fill back up with 93oct.
P.S i am getting tuned soon...just waiting on new parts.


Berzerklo...
Haven't heard 93+paint thinner before, but i am sure it has it's drawbacks too? I know E85 is very corrosive. So i guess it's not even safe to run it once if the fuel system isn't upgraded to run it.

 

i am just educating myself...so keep bashing on minimum.

 

sorry haha, well imho stick with 93 oct or on the track go with c16 or something... or even add meth ..

 

man i so with they had 100oct at pumps...

 

wait i dont get it.. if your running rich then why are you having det problems?

 

^^ Timing?

Detonation doesnt always have to do with quantitiy of fuel, but when the spark is introduced to the combustion chamber.

 

I misspoke earlier... it is called Toluene which is rated at ~113 Octane. You can buy it from Home Depot or Ace Hardware. You are supposed to use 30% in a tank of gas MAX. Here are a couple of links about it:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-497895.html

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-430071.html

I will say I have never done this personally. GTScoob knows a little bit more about this than me... he knows people that has done this for years. Are you just looking for higher octane gas? They have to sell race gas somewhere around here. How else would all these people have race gas tunes at Topspeed and Batlground?

 

lol no detonation problem here...i was just saying. It's safer to have less detonation when running the car hard. But ya i am running rich...when i get all the goodies then back in for tune.

 

yea u can buy race gas from vendors and i don't know where's the closest VP supplier that i can buy directly from. I am just looking to make things safe for the engine when running hard (higher octane helps). Thanks for the links man...i'll look into that and prbly try it on my beater first.

 

None that I've ever heard of. I know a lot of Rotary guys swear by the stuff. They add enough to make like a 30% mix at every fill up.

 

ethanol has a higher octane, which implies higher compression

ethanol has lower energy per volume, which implies less miles to the gallon

 

run nights? desi you are a ricer

 

E85 rocks, I dont get the hate in this thread. There have been a few posts on nasioc of guys tuning their own cars and pulling race-gas type numbers out with just E85. The ethanol works as a great opponent to detonation so boost and timing can be increased. The basic gist that I got is that it works great if you've got a wideband and are fine with tuning your car for each tank of gas since ethanol is nowhere near as consistent as regular pump gas. You will also burn through a lot more.

The toluene that Berzerklo mentioned is just a paint thinner, $16/gal. 114 octane. 2 gals of it on top of 14 gals of 93 works out to around 96 octane in the tank. I dont know anyone personally other than Genya that ran it for any length of time but there are guys on nasioc that claimed to have run it in every fillup for years and have no problems with it. Most 93 octane gas contains a little toluene to get it up to 93 if the gas is bad. You can buy it in larger drums and reduce the price a good bit if you're serious about running it. The high-boost F1 cars of the 80s ran straight toluene too, although you cant really compare a 900HP 1.5L turbocharged motor to any of our streetgoing motors.

 

I am thinking about getting a v2 accessport for when I do the 2.5 swap. I've got a v1 now but would like to be able to swap maps on the fly, it would come in handy to have a e85 map on it as well, what do u think?

 

It has to do with mis-information and lack of knowledge on the issue. People hear things like 'it gets less gas milage' and is therefore 'not as powerful,' but you never hear the conditions with which its being used.

Its like using a ball-peen hammer to frame up a room. It can do it, but its not designed to do it well.

The way I had it explained to me, The conditions in which e85 is supposedly 'less powerful' are in regular cars, and flex fuel cars. These are engines designed to safely operate with both gasoline and ethanol.

An engine tuned/setup to run only on e85 regains much of the 'lost' power by comparison, and is regarded as a more efficient burn than gasoline. The high octane rating means that a well tuned e85 engine will be a high compression, or a forced induction engine. (compared to a regular gas engine)

 

THe fact is that it does contain LESS power per L than gas. You need MORE of it.

 

OK, I can see how that would be true. But if you are going to run ONLY E85 and you get the tune, MAKE SURE you upgrade all the necessary rubber for the fuel system so they don't degrade.

 

the shell station at crabapple had 100 octane last time I checked but that was a while ago but had it for years.

 

well i was at the chevron on satelite rd and duluth hwy and saw that the 93 octane they have has 10% ethanol in it. i cant tell a difference in power but i can see a difference in mpg.

 

no longer carry 100, checked few month ago. Unless there is more than one Shell on crabapple off of Holcombridge.

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1268278&highlight=e85
374lbft torque with a 2.5L and stock TD04, 249whp and E85

 

As I understand it, E85 gives you a ton of freedom in what you do with your car. The higher rating gives you quite a bit more freedom in comp ratios, boost, etc. Sure, if your going stock setup for gas/e85 then your going to use more e85, but if you consider what you can do with E85 vs. gas at more involved setups then you see why a lot of people are running ethanol. KA-T.org is a good forum for 85 tunes. Most of the guys making 500+ on stock blocks use it. Your basically getting what 100 octane (when blended, check for accuracy?) for the price of plus gas or 93.

Also I think a lot of the hate on ethanol is due to the misconception that it all comes from corn or soybeans. Cellulosic ethanol is what most people are pushing, not the original corn ethanol that everyone is thinking about. I think Georgia already has a couple of cellulosic plants using waste wood to produce ethanol.

long post short....shit i would use it if I could.

 

its not cause its not good, its becuase wed have to retune.

 

there u go...that's what i was saying too. Straight E85 with it's own map. Should be safe to run once a while without damaging fuel system.

 

We've done a number of E85 cars.

Siegel

 

not to thread jack, but what do you charge for an e85 tune? and what ems do you tune?

 

I don't trust a lot of the words on this thread.

First, people are talking about e85 and "octane." That "octane" rating is getting sloppy. We're really nowhere near measuring octane anymore. Octane is a hydrocarbon like propane and ethane. There's an "equivalence" concept that starts losing meaning when you're really putting "ethanol" (a 2-carbon molecule) into a tank and talking about "octane" (an 8-carbon molecule).

I do trust the people who are politely mentioning the fact that ethanol will dissolve parts that octane won't hurt. If your tubing isn't ready for alcohol, it'll get pretty squishy after it soaks in corn mash for a while.

Then, the tune is really important. You have a computer in your car that "knows" how much fuel you need to exactly consume a given amount of air - as long as the fuel is (nearly) octane. Your computer measures how much air is going into the cylinders and squirts in fuel to match. This the "stoichiometry" business. Ethanol need a different ratio from octane.

So, what if you get that stoichiometry noise wrong? If I remember correctly, with an ECU that's tuned to octane, you squirt too much alcohol into the cylinders and it doesn't burn cleanly. You have alcohol left on the cylinder walls. Alcohol does a great job of dissolving oils, and it reduces the effect of your engine oil, reducing the lubrication on the cylinders.

If you want to run e85, get a quality tune and make sure that the alcohol is all burned up. Otherwise - metal on metal. That's gotta hurt.

My 2 cents.
DD

 

I've given this some thought, and I think I got it wrong. I'm not so sure that you end up with too much fuel in the mix.

The alcohol is a different kind of solvent. Burning ethanol is a lot different from burning octane. The lubrication is very different.

Read some more to learn about ethanol stoichiometry. "Octane" ratings don't tell the whole story.

DD

 

All tuning here at TopSpeed is $160 per hour. We tune all EMS.

Siegel

 

It's a different tuning practice. Tuning for E85 is much like tuning for Meth injection I would imagine. They both burn slower and similar whereas gasoline is more 'explosive'.