A letter from Ecutek to the Subaru Tuning Community

As there has been quite a bit of publicity lately about it, I thought "the community" should know the real origin of OpenECU. Here's a letter from Ecutek:

" Dear US Ecutek Partner.

The market in the US has changed for us all.

We have seen the way that even our own partners have dragged the price down of mapping Subarus and EVOs and quite honestly it has shocked us.

In the past we have tried to introduce some stability in the market. You might want to call it price control. It enabled tuners to earn good money per car. It enabled you to spend time, take care and give your customers good quality work, with a warranty. It gave you and EcuTeK a good reputation. We did not think that this was an unreasonable amount to earn considering the investment that most of you have in your business. As you know every time you open the hood on a customer's car you are taking a risk and making money in the automotive business is hard enough, so the chance to make a good profit for good work, using a good tool has been good for you.

However the market has dictated that customers do not seem to want to pay for the luxury of good work, skilled tuning and back up, therefore there are no longer any pricing recommendations from our point of view.

For this reason we are reducing the license cost to you . We will use the current exchange rate and invoice in UK Pounds but try to make sure that you are paying as close to the same as possible. With this change in pricing we will now strictly enforce a minimum order quantity of 5 licenses. There are no changes to the pricing for EasyECU.

In the US only, there seems to be a culture (with a few notable exceptions amongst our dealers) of "let's make things as cheap as possible" combined with "my product is better then yours because it is cheaper".

As someone who deals with companies all over the world on a daily basis I can say that this method of marketing is almost totally unique to the US. What it results in is that the price drops until such time that there is no profit in the work for reputable companies with sensible facilities, staff and costs. This in turn means that the work is being carried out by less skilled people who do not have the infrastructure or the financial stability to offer customers, warranty, support, updates and in a lot of cases even half decent work.

How can anyone map a 30,000 dollar car for less than the price of a vacuum cleaner and give it the time and skill that it requires?

Taking this discussion further how can you, our partners expect us to provide high quality products, development, support (which is almost 24 hour), training, a North American office without a license cost.

I would urge you to spare a moment to think how much money you have made from Ecutek and how much support we have given on a technical and sales basis to you. Think of other suppliers that you have for highly technical products and compare the quality of their products, support and training to ours (Have any of you ever tried to get telephone or e-mail support for a PC?).

This has been possible because of the licenses that you buy. Please do not think of these as some sort of expensive e-mail. These give you the ability to make money. They provide us with an income that enables us to spend over a million dollars per year on development staff, equipment, overheads and resources.

Some people reading this mail are now using openecu to program customer cars. Some people reading this are openly advertising the fact and are saying in forums that EcuTeK offers the customer nothing that openecu offers. Please don't be fooled into thinking that openecu is the result of thousands of hours work by highly skilled people who understand electronics, software, engineering and vehicles. It is not.

It is always easier to imitate than innovate.

Some of you have bemoaned the fact they we are not developing anything new. You could not be more wrong. However, in our position, would you release new work only to have it appear for free and be used against you by people who we thought were loyal customers and had made significant profits using our products?

As you MAY know the MY07-08 Legacy has a different ECU that cannot be supported with current EcuTeK software or any other product and requires us to develop new hardware and software. This will be fitted to the WRX and STi very shortly. We have been working on this for over a year now. Have the people responsible for openecu been working on this for a year already? Will they be offering this new software and hardware for free to you BEFORE we bring out a product? Do we release this new product to you and see it appear for free soon after and watch the price of mapping these cars descend to 99 dollars?

You tell us what to do because we are currently discussing whether to offer new products into the US market.

We are fortunate that we have a lot of customers around the world that DO have the attitude that they want to offer high quality work and they want to make a profit as well. We also have customers at the highest possible level within Mitsubishi and Subaru (as well as other manufacturers that we work with) who place great value on the work that we do.

We hope that you appreciate something of what we have done for you and that this price reduction will help you compete with a free product.

If you are in any doubt about the origins of this free software then see below just one screen shot that shows our unique data that appear in the openecu products. Also study the names and letter capitalisation. Ask yourself if you were writing software could you come up with EXACTLY the same names for 50 maps and capitalise them the same as us? As well as shortening words like "Advance Mult for Boost Disable" as used in both pieces of software?




All the best

David Power

 

Good tuning shouldn't be a luxury. Anybody can out modify another driver, but that doesn't mean they are the better driver. Its so hard to get into professional racing because of the lack of $ by most people.

Cobb is doing so well, because it doesn't cost nearly as much and allows for inexpensive tuning by the user.

Nobody cries when people rip off prescription drugs to make them cheapier. EcuTek can't save a life like a drug can, but that doesn't mean they need to fleece their clients or limit the technology only to the elites among the community. They need to patent their technology to keep their butts safe.

Welcome to Walmart.

 

cheap consumers buying bad reverse engineered product will be the death of the industry. david is right, this mindset is unique to the states. anywhere else in the world, the consumers can appreciate and value well engineered product and will gladly pay the price because they recognize good product.

we all need to remember that its a business and if we don't support those businesses, then no progress will ever be made and those businesses will be gone with the exception of the knock-off business.

but what happens when the knock-off businesses don't have any new/good products to copy? the industry as a whole will be dead.

buyers beware because you get what you pay for!

 

I think that they just need to step up their game, and innovate EcuTek so that it does have more advanced features.

I would imagine them losing a lot more business to the Cobb AccessPort than the OpenECU software.


--
Brian

 

It is sad to see people coping another persons intellectual property, changing names and calling it their own, and then offering it for free. As said above, OpenECU would not be available if it weren't for EcuTek.

I am not changing my EM. EcuTek has done me very well, especially in the hands of a great tuner like SS. I will continue to support EcuTek and recommend their product of Cobb AP. I will not try to talk people out of the OpenECU software, but at the same point, I will not recommend it.

OpenECU would be a great option for someone who wants to tune their own car themselves. If you are taking your car to a tuner, use Professional software.

Unfortunately, the US has major issues with paying for something they can get for free. Hell I am guilty of it almost everyday. However, the stuff I get for free will not change the industry. If EcuTek drops out of the US market, soon, Cobb will follow suit because, lets face it, they may not have sent an email to thier licensed Tuners, but they are losing money just like EcuTek.

Eventually both companies will drop the US market, and then we will not have any new advancements with tuning. Like they said above, the 07-08 model year software is currently being developed. Once they release it, if OpenECU copies it, and they lose money, what happens with the 09-10 model ECU. EcuTek is not going to invest in the research needed to make their software work, and if Cobb follows suit there will be noone to due the grunt work for OpenECU.

Now, maybe some of this is EcuTek's fault. Maybe, as said above, they need to patent their technology so companies like OpenECU can not legally steal thier work. I hope EcuTek is looking into this.

 

hmm..wonder when moose is going to chime in. I am all for OpenECU. If you know what you are doing why not save yourself a ton of money.

 

I searched the uspto.gov website, and didn't see anything related to Ecutek.

Reverse engineering is legal, and Ecutek is reverse engineering Subaru's software to create their software in the first place. I don't see how they can patent the details that they disclose about the Subaru ecu, that you could see just through the operation of their software. The OpenECU code is open source, and freely available.

While open source development is bad for the commercial industry, I see it beneficial for the overall market, offering more options to the end user.

If someone wants to tune their own car, and accepts the risk, I see no issue with OpenECU. I am planning on running MegaSquirt on my Honda project in the future.

Used WRXs are also far from a $30k car also...

--
Brian

 

Exactly, if you know what you are doing, then yes, save yourself money. But if you do not know what you are doing, and going to a professional to do the work for you, then you should not be using OpenECU.

 

If I wasn't considering buying OpenECU, I would get Cobb AP2. EcuTek never crossed my mind. So they never had my business to lose in the first place.

If this email stops Scott from tuning OpenECU, then I may consider COBB AP2.

 

BrianGT is right on that. Open Source software like Linux and all other software is hurting MS, yea M$ still makes a ton of money but no one gives 2cents when they bitch about it. If EcuTek isn't smart enough to patent their work or protect it some way legally, they only have themselves to blame for it. I'm not a huge Open Source advocate but I think it's a good thing.

 

If any intellectual property piece was stolen it would be the xmlwrite software not enginuity or ecuflash. The technique for flashing is not something that Ecutek could even hope to patent. The memory addresses for the maps are also something that they cannot patent.

When I first started using the openecu stuff I had to use a hex editor to find the maps.

All Ecutek needs to do is sell the software so people who want to can tune the car themselves. The EasyEcu is a small step in the right direction but they need to do more. If they had done that earlier the openecu movement would never have taken hold.

 

I know nothing about Linux, but is it a direct rip off of MS. Or is Linux something that people are spending thier time and money on, then offering their work for free as a big FU to MS. If it is the later, than MS has no right to complain, but if Linux is a direct rip off of MS, then they do. But because MS is so hated because they control the PC market, people don't care about their complaints. Its not like they are in any risk of going out of business in the near future because of Linux.

 

I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed in this being posted as 'the truth about OpenECU' by our esteemed local tuner.

Let's get a few things straight...

1) OpenECU is not a piece of software. It's a loosely knit group of people working on several different software packages and sharing information.

2) The screenshots above are from EcuEdit, which everybody in the OpenECU community knows the story behind: the guy figured out how to rip off the EcuTek maps, and developed something that he briefly released as open source freeware but then turned around and started charging money for -- NOT an open source free product. There's a long thread on openecu.org debating this, and the group I associate with (Enginuity) do not support nor encourage what he's doing.

3) The Enginuity team maintains everything open source and free--forever. And if you think they're just ripping off Ecutek stuff, you'd be pretty wrong; these guys are hacking the ECU code to allow for new things that didn't even EXIST before. Go read some of the threads and you can see the assembly code they're working on to allow for realtime tuning, per-gear boost control, stationary rev limiter etc. They're not just FINDING stuff, they are CREATING it. That alone should be sufficient proof that they're not just lifting EcuTek code and converting it. Where's EcuTek's realtime tuning, per-gear boost control and stationary rev limiter? Should we accuse them of ripping Enginuity off if they add it?

4) Don't think thousands of hours have gone into the open source software? Think again. On Enginuity project alone there are dozens of people contributing enormous amounts of their time improving the software, finding out new tables/locations, modifying code for the ECU and so forth. We even have one of the Innovate Motorsports guys contributing code for the Innovate products so they can interface with Enginuity.

5) If Enginuity ripped off EcuTek, why doesn't the software have all the tables EcuTek supports?

So basically, they are slamming 'OpenECU' by showing that some non-open, non-free software--which admittedly originated in the OpenECU group--has ripped off the EcuTek tables. Fact is, they're running scared because some of the open source projects are gaining serious momentum and professional tuners ARE using them.

Anyway, this is mostly focusing on Enginuity, and that's because I think it's the most actively developed and honest OpenECU related one out there. The OpenECU.org site has pretty much gone to crap lately. Unfortunately, the bad attention garnered by stuff like EcuEdit tends to get people to cast blame on anything OpenECU related including Enginuity; I'm starting to despise the whole 'OpenECU' name at this point since it doesn't really represent anything...

As for 420s comment, why NOT use Enginuity or some other tool when going to a professional tuner? They should be able to edit maps with it just fine.

 

While I agree with everything said....

There is a reason SUBARU does not like the US market that much.

 

I have to agree with Alex, the consumers set the conditions for the market. A competitive company will adapt and provide the consumer with the type of product he/she demands. I find it interesting that Cobb was able to react the the lead that Ecutek was appearing to gain in the market place by releasing the Street tuner and Protuner software. I don't think OpenECU is pulling so many people into it that its truly damaging Ecutek or Cobb. I think Ecutek's business competitors are doing far more damage to Ecutek than the Open Source community. I don't understand the thinking that a consumer should be left with only one option for a product, no matter how much quality is built into the product. If consumers having choice and ability to influence the market is a "uniquely American trait" than that explains to me why our economy is doing so well right now and why we continue to lead the world in technological innovation, as a whole. I think that there is a little bit of self serving whining going on here. If Ecutek can't compete due to price, I will be sorry to see them go, but don't expect me to go without EMshould I desire it, or just pay the price THEY deem fair, just because you can't figure out a way to bring a product to market that is competitive qulaity and price wise with other companies in the market....

 

As I said in my previous posts, if OpenECU is doing alot of the work themselves, then what they are doing is legitimate competition. If what you are saying above is true, then I see no problem with OpenECU. It is the EcuEdit that is the problem. The fact that they started out under OpenECU should be the issue then and maybe OpenECU should decide on a different name for their software to escape the damage done by former members of thier team. If EcuEdit was formerly, at one point called OpenECU, then OpenECU is always going to have the "contraversy" of being seen as someone who is stealing someone elses intellectual property.

 

I have always respected and admired the Ecutek name, until 15 mins ago. Threatening to pull their software and support from the US market is bullshit in my opinion.

Bottomline is the Ecutek has gotten fat and lazy, thiking they had this market locked down. Now that there is a FREE software to challange them, they want to bitch and moan about it. This reminds me of children who brought basketsballs to the court when i was young. If they didn't get their way, they would grab their ball and go home. If this is their attitude then let me be the first to say, SEE YOU BITCH!

Ecutek is going about this the wrong way. Why not just go back to the drawing board and make something that would be near impossible to copy or maybe throwing in something like delta dash software with the $850 price tag. My point is bring something else to the table that others cannot for FREE.

As far as the US market comments, how long do you think that OpenECU or any other software like that will spread worldwide? I work in sales so I understand sort of what they are saying, but they just took the wrong approch to it.

 

Please understand that my entire arguement is based on the assumption that OpenECU is a direct ripoff of EcuTek with just minor visual changes. If what Moose is saying is true, then EcuTek deserves to go under. Cobb is a big hit to them, and maybe they are just looking for any excuse to blame thier failure on.

Alex I agree with you 100%. Again, my arguement is based on the assumption that OpenECU is a direct ripoff of EcuTek.

 

Allow me to repeat: there IS no 'OpenECU' software. Period. It's a website/forum where people started out sharing information and code.

Enginuity these days is pretty much not associated with OpenECU.org and most people there consider the OpenECU forums more or less dead and useless.

So let's revisit: openecu.org started with people sharing information on a forum. One guy took some of the stuff and ripped off some ecutek stuff and made a for-sale product. Another group of people went on to form Team Enginuity.

 

Ecutek has lowered their prices in response.

I think the license, EasyEcu cable and Delta dash are now only $500. Not bad seeing as though I spent 650 on a license and 300 for DeltaDash. If they would give a price break to people who were already existing customers I would have considered going EasyEcu. Unfortunately they are still charging 350 for existing users to upgrade.

Bad business will be their downfall not open source developoment. While they are moaning and bitching, Cobb their true competition, is taking market share.

 

If there is no software, how do you connect the computer to the ECU and read the information to even start tuning? There is some sort of Interface, maybe not a specific downloaded program that you use to make changes. If that interface is directly ripped off of EcuTek, then there complaint is valid. If Team Enginuity is developing their own interface then there is no right for EcuTek to complain.

 

What EcuTek ought to do is leverage their ability to do something that the open source crowd cannot easily compete with: produce dedicated hardware with attractive features, just like Cobb does. Imagine if EcuTek released say an in-dash device (think majorly updated dash monitor) with an LCD panel that did road dyno graphs, virtual gauges, provided a slick interface to control various things.. make it sleek and attractive, with pretty colors and cool animation and crap. Throw that out there for a good price, and watch people flock to it. They've long since recouped the costs of reverse engineering for instance the USDM 2002-2005 ECUs; it's time to take that now free-to-them technology and just package it with other products like what I mentioned above as more or less a freebie. Make money off new products and features instead of charging a ton for ECU licenses. Just let the ECU licenses be a dangling carrot and incentive for people to buy their other products.

 

Just to throw my $.01 in, I looked at a variety of software options before going with my current EM. True I already had AP V1 at the time, however it would have been very easy to go with "Free" software and OpenEcu/Enginuity/whatever the name is these days. I explored this option and after talking to the guys at Cobb (didn't even mention one other option, just talked about their software) I decided to go with Street Tuner from Cobb. I think it is a value thing for me. I could pay $8xx.00 for Ecutec and get on tune done. I could pay nothing and tune myself. Or I could pay $200-400 for ST software and get a great company name that had been very supportive thus far (barring one minor instance that turned out to be a problem with my wideband) and have some very good options for tuning such as live tuning, on the fly map changes (partial change, not full) and several options for wideband.

To me I feel that Cobb and their Street Tuner software is probably a much LARGER threat than OpenEcu. Cobb dealt with the threat in the correct way...they released something with more options and better engineering. While it may be true that Enginuity might eventually have all the same options, I find that Cobb and Christian at Cobb in particular have been a HUGE resource in this process. He is very good about getting back to me, usually same day as well as sharing his knowledge and opinions on various tuning ideas (right or wrong) that may pop into my head.

Cheaper is not always better. I think it is all about the value for the money. If they offered a competitive product, such as St and Cobb AP, then I feel they would be shoving units off the shelf just as fast as Cobb. Fact is Cobb is not bitching and whining and are STILL having trouble keeping the AP 2 in stock!! That above all else should show that they have produced a competitive product that is not having any issue keeping up.

At this point I feel Ecutek should pretty much put up or shut up. Answer the call that the people have put out for a better product or sit down and let the big boys play. Personally I commend people working on such a project as Enginuity. Shows a great community spirit of enthusiasts and it keeps the programming companies on their toes!

 

Very well said. The majority of subaru customers seem to be pretty conservative modders who want to keep plenty of reliability and stray from anything different from the typical mod paths. For them ecutek /AP is perfect, they can take their car somewhere to get it tuned and leave it forever. For those that like to tinker and experiment its nice to be able to cheaply do so on your own. There are more WRXs on the road than ever before, the market is growing, why complain?

 

Exactly!! I could not agree more.

 

LOL at this thread.

I don't even want to get involved with this because its going to be way to long a thread, so Ill make a quick statement and then, I'm going to leave it alone.

I've done a lot of my own tuning via AEM in a couple of different cars, and I've watched Scott tune a number of Subaru's with ECUtek, Cobb, and OpenECU. There are a lot of tables that are available to the pro tuner with ECUtek and with Cobb that are not available with Open ECU, which is not to say that they can't become available but they currently aren't. With Open Ecu you're support is a website with Cobb and Ecutek you have someone to call. I think we probably had Christian at Cobb on the phone for an hour or two for my car. That kind of back up is worth a lot. I will continue to pay for what I believe is a quality product built by people who actually care about the quality of the tune on their customers cars.

Matt

OH...
We have been on the phone with Cobb on a Saturday night while we were at the track (and they were at the bar) and they walked us through the problem we were having and got it fixed. That my friends is customer service.

 

What I am saying is, you can't refer to any particular piece of software as 'the OpenECU software'. There's EcuFlash, EcuEdit, Enginuity, TunerPro, EcuExplorer etc... they all more or less started out from people sharing information under the openecu.org umbrella. Now they are all developed individually and have their own teams.

Enginuity still relies on Colby's EcuFlash software which really kicked off the whole open source tuning initiative. Eventually they'll add flashing into the Enginuity software, but as the EcuFlash approach works fine there's no rush to do so with all the other things sitting in the queue waiting to be coded.

 

Yep, you definately get what you pay for when the shit hits the fan.

Scott, if Ecutek pulls out of the US will you still keep the software to update maps just not flash any new ECUs?

 

I don't think they can afford to pull out of the US.

 

By the way, since Scott saw fit to instigate this whole debate: Have you ever tuned with Enginuity, and if so, what are your experiences? Would you consider it in any way a 'rip off' of EcuTek or Cobb?

Since you decided to slam everything 'OpenECU' I'd like to hear your thoughts here... if you've only dealt with EcuEdit and using that experience to proclaim that everything 'OpenECU' is a terrible evil ripoff, you should probably reconsider.

 

LOL...says the great defender of everything Open ECU

 

Maybe you can fill me in since you used 'OpenECU'... which software are you referring to, exactly?

 

Well it is actually GREAT for tuners! Think about it, the consumer can now pay the money they once had to pay for just the product and get a tune. Instead of paying $800 or $600 for just the product, they can now put that same money in the tuners hand instead! So now they can pay $300 to the tuner instead of $600 for the product and another $300 for the tune. Seems to me to be a win for the tuners, not a downside.

 

I've actually played with a couple of versions, I used ECUedit, I've also played with a Beta version of Colby's software, I've also seen and played with a couple of versions for the evo. But honestly for the most part they are all the same. I couldn't give you a good reason to use one over the other. I've also seen enough of the cobb protuner software and the ecutek software that I know I like the interface on the cobb much better. But I have never tuned with either one of those.

 

F@#$, I spent $850 for my Ecutek lic. Of course I had a good tune and great support afterwards, but damn it hurt. My VW was chipped/tuned for ~$370. Having the price drop after making the purchase always sucks, but even M$ offers free updates and discounted upgrades. I'd really like to see some additional features that Enginuity? is offering, esp. real-time tuning for map switching and per gear boost for Ecutek. Even better if I could map switch ***without a laptop***. We'll see...

 

Fairly aggressive there Moose, I just posted a letter from Ecutek... not sure how that became "Since you decided to slam everything 'OpenECU' "

As I stated, to be competitive I'll tune it, but "a forum" doesn't offer me the support of a company...

I just wanted people to know that it did not originate from openecu hacking the Subaru box, but hacking Ecutek...

SS

 

This is the main reason I decided to go with ST over any other option. While I still plan on having my car pro-tuned when I am closer to being done with it, I wanted something I could modify myself in the mean time or afterwards for additional mods. Cobb had a great interface, nice graphical representations, live tuning (awesome feature and soooo helpful) and great customer service. Christian at Cobb is simply awesome. He has answered so many questions for me through email, forums and phone. That in and of itself is one of the reasons that I threw my business to Cobb. Hell, Christian really does not even know if I own ST (but I do), but he helps anyway without any type of verification or license number or anything. That to me is worthy of the money I paid for their product.

Same goes for Scott Seigel. He has been there to answer questions. To date I have paid him nothing, BUT, he has earned my trust and I would not think of letting someone else protune my car!

 

You titled the thread 'The truth about OpenECU' -- that's fairly inflammatory.

Here's something worth reading to get an idea of what goes on in Enginuity development:
http://www.enginuity.org/viewtopic.php?t=1004

Check that thread and you'll see they're doing something a little different from stealing EcuTek code.

Also, everything you say appears to be related to EcuEdit alone, so if that is the case please refer to it by name rather than 'openECU' since that drags in everything else related.

 

EcuTek was excellent with Customer Support when I got my first tune. I was the first 05 WRX to be tuned with EcuTek in Atlanta at least. My car was the first to have the immobilizer, and a locked to 1 car ECU. I made an appointment to have SS tune, went to SOG, my first meeting with SS and SOG, and Scott pulls my car back and connects the cables to start tuning, but he could not read my Ecu. He called other tuners in the country to see if anyone knew what was up and nobody did. He called EcuTek UK and they told him the issue, sent him the new software the next day and I was back in getting my first tune.

 

I belive that was the title of the email that was sent to Scott, I'm not really sure why you have youre panties in a wad about this but its really not that big a deal.

 

And my 3 laws of the internet car forum still hold true. Law number 2: Debates about tuning soon turn into arguments. I realize we are not at the beligerent stages yet, but lets remember that were all trying to hold a nice debate here. Lets keep the postings from degrading into name calling and such. I know most of you post like you talk, but try to remember that your written words come out more harshly than your spoken words...

 

It is always hard to take typed word and interpret it the same as spoken word. Tone, inflection, etc is just lost...one reason I HATE text messages and such. But forums do have their place. I just hope people see this for what it is....a discussion about a company who is throwing a temper tantrum about having to come up with new and inventive products to keep a market:eek3: , not calling out individuals.