buddy of mine just bought an 06 denali fully loaded for 18k........................................................ this economy is nuts....why couldn't it be like this when i bought my car!?!?!?!? oh well! hopefully something positive will happen soon
My dad saw a brand new 2009 chrysler sebring for 11,000.00. Thats like half price. They would also finance it at 0% for 60 mos. I mean this is ridiculous.
Outside of the vette (and arguably the skystice) name one really compelling product that Detroit has churned out in the last decade. I am talking about a segment defining, genre creating vehicle. There are none! How is that even possible? To go 10 years without a truly remarkable product? How does the leadership of a corporation get up and go to work each day with absolutely nothing to show for their time? How do they survey the landscape of the automotive industry and not see that they have been long passed by the Japanese Manufacturers (and the Koreans are now pulling ahead as well)? I am not even going to mention the Europeans. It sickens me to think of all the products that could have been produced, SHOULD have been produced, and weren't for lack of vision and an overabundance of hubris by our automotive manufacturers. High school students have churned out more compelling product than the big three.... http://pesn.com/2006/02/28/9600238_High_School_Soy_Sports_Car/
How about a 08 STI for $31K or less? You also get 0% for 63 months. People out west are getting them for $29K for base models.
i have to step in here with a few cents. The V-series Caddies are amazing cars. your point is valid, but you said name any. I'd rock a CTS-V in a heart beat.
You can the 0% at probably every dealer if you qualify for the loan. Now, getting $5k off of sticker will be the hard bit. If you head over to the News and Rumors section of NASIOC you will find a thread with all the info. I have heard rumors of a local dealer doing the deals but I don't have confirmation. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1630732 I did the work for you. There is also a thread on IWSTI as well.
Was the CTS-V genre redefining? Do people now think of the caddie before the M series BMW's? Nope. The 300c's were a fad vehicle. Not truly great cars. Kind of like the PT Cruiser. To me, the genre vehicles are the likes of the WRX (which elevated and spawned a whole new level of "pocket rockets"), M Series Bimmers, Mini, Miata, even the Honda Fit. These vehicles spawned movement within the enitre industry. Every major automotive company developed product in reaction to these vehicles. Ford brought the Mustang, decent styling, decent performance, hardly a tour de force of automotive engineering. The SRT-4 was a decent car from the performance standpoint, but the interior quality was horrid. Why? Because the auto industry was able to coast on reputation and American loyalty for far too long. They brought us the Ford Focus in reaction to the Honda Civic, the Aztec in reaction to...well I don't know what, the Contour in reaction to the Acura Legend. None of the cars developed domestically caused a reaction from the rest of the world, we were always responding, and with sub par product, and now, they need us to bail them out, which we will have to do to save tens of thousands of American jobs. The volt seems like it will end up another half hearted attempt.
It all goes back to the chicken tax of the 70s. But I wouldn't be too hard, there's almost nobody of significance left in detroit from that era. Now there's only executives who know only failure, those who didn't come in during the SUV boom and the huge margins on those, but came after that bubble popped. I say if Chevy nails the launch of the VOLT, all others will be following in their wake for decades playing catchup. But if it bombs...GM really does have nothing left that I can see...
Challenger and new Camaro stand to turn things around a bit IMO, especially after seeing the Camaro unveiled at SEMA this year.
Don't you have to give credit to Ford for the retro-Mustang? After all, I'd say that it ushered in the other retro models that are new or heading this way (Challenger, Camaro). That model did a helluva job for them if I remember right.
Again, neither car is genre defining. The Camaro may turn out to be a nice RWD sports car. But, at almost 4000lbs, and with a V8, its not relying on any stellar new technology. The Mustang didn't really intro the retro thing there was the Plymouth Prowler, The Ford Thunderbird and a few others. The mustang isn't a bad car, the Camaro and Challenger look to be nice cars, but they aren't going to push the imports in any significant way. They will attract the same buyers that have always been attracted to large, V8 powered cars. No one that is shopping for an M3 is going to look at either of those cars for more than a second. I can argue that buyers would go the other way though. The point is that American car companies have been told, over and over, what the consumer wants. They have been shown what the consumer wants through sales figures. You can lead a horse to water, but....
So is the government going to end up bailing out the American Auto Industry for Billions? Does it make any sense to do so? Won't Obama tax the hell out of all the American Auto Companies for every car they produce that isn't a Flex Fuel or Alternate Energy powered vehicle? CHANGE
Edited because I don't want to thread jack any further than some of the people throwing in their politics.
There is nothing "new" about this. There are some new products, but they are not selling well, and as the market grows more crowded with the new challenger and the Camaro, and as gas prices begin to inch higher again, they will be trying to give these away. These vehicles certainly aren't going to resurrect the "Big Three". Dodge seemed to be getting the idea with the SRT-4, but they replaced it with the Caliber?!?!? WTF!!! Chevy has the new Cobalt SS which is a nice little package. The interior is still way too cheap for a vehicle costing that much, but its one niche product that is a catch up attempt. Again, my point is, they have been told, shown, begged by some of their brand loyalist customers, what to do, but they have refused to listen. If we give them a dime, it should be with some pretty clear instructions on what they need to do for the country (i.e. collaborative R&D for alternative fuels/powersource vehicles which share a common platform, which we can then build a national infrastructure for)....
^Quite true. I mean I love all of the retro muscle (and old muscle), but you're right, there's nothing really innovative or progressive about them.
How is it not progress? Drive down any major highway and you will see 5 new mustangs easy. Had ford not started the new retro stang, would dodge have started the retro look or would they have shelled out an all new looking challenger?
It doesn't add anything to the industry. Just because you see a lot of something doesn't mean its different or innovative
Yup the re-positioning of cars that were first introduced 40 years ago is like feeding a tic tac to a whale when it comes to staying competitive in the auto industry. You hear the "high paying exec and union", argument as well and there is some relevance to that but nothing to rationalize the epic failure that is currently occurring. The big three have been outsourcing manufacturing for a long time as well so they have been able to avoid the full impact of unions. I believe they gambled on American consumer loyalty tying in American cars with patriotism and a ton of lobbying to pander to administrations that were petroleum friendly so they could keep producing big vehicles, instead of spending the money and time to change their manufacturing practices in the USA and refocus their brand to stay competitve. Case and point they have being manufacturing fuel efficient cutting edge vehicles in Europe for years. They got cought with their pants down. It just took a crisis to break their consumer loyal bubble.
While the Mustang may sell relatively well, its not the recipe for turning Ford around....that's what I am driving at. The Camaro isn't going to save Chevy either. Neither of these cars is going to prompt a response from Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, Honda, etc. Namely because they already produce cars that will outperform these vehicles and get better gas mileage. Again the Corvette is amazing from this perspective, but its ONE car out of hundreds of current and "failed" models....
It may not mean it is different or innovative, but it does mean that people like what they see and are buying them. Eventually leading to more automotive manufacturers going this route and making similar products.
You have ford, GM and some Chysler cars being produced for three different car companies with a gallizon different options; quaility will never be that good. Most Japanese cars have one to three option packages and usually are not offered in more than two different car lines. American companies where way too wrapped up in keeping their old brands alive (oldsmobile, mercury, plymouth etc) instead of producing one line of cars well. There has been no innovation out of Chevy and Ford as long as I have been alive other than the "taurus" maybe. Perhaps this downturn will prod them into actually being innovative and cutting edge. However I do plan on buying a tow vehical soon
In this economic climate, with gas prices where they are (even now with the recent slide) no one is going to be making big, heavy, V8 powered cars as a means of saving their companies. The Camaro has been wallowing in Chevy's design house for YEARS and still has almost a half a year before its released. Oh and those Mustang sales numbers have been trending down (somewhere in the minus 20% range) since last year....don't get me wrong, I think they are fine sports cars, but sports cars have never been, and never will be the bread and butter, large profit margin vehicles for the mainstream manufacturer (not named Porsche, Ferrari, or Lamborghini, etc...).
Yes this is true. Though off topic from the first post. This thread is about automotive companies making a new and exciting car which would lead to an all new genre so to speak. I think Ford has succeeded in this with the New-age mustang.
now mind you, a lot of the issue American car companies have, are the Americans that work for them. they expect a decent wage and health insurance for their family. not all car companies, Asia I'm looking at you, spent their monies on worker benefits. they can build a cheaper car. is this bad? and who's at fault?
This is GM in Europe. Tell me these cars could not compete with the current Asian/European cars here. This is what is confusing to me! http://www.vauxhall.com/vaux/home.d...ult&cd=1&q=Vauxhall&spell=1#vehicleTabs:Tigra http://www.vauxhall.com/vaux/configurator/vehicleConfAction.do?method=showConfigurator Crazy Little Ford: http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/configurator/-/car_config_iapp/-/-/-/-
"Its been out since 2005, ford = dying. Point being the new age mustang didnt do anything." Really? So you are saying that there was proof that GM was going to do this anyways? Even if Ford was to come out with something out-of-this-world unbelievable?
The muscle car segment is neither new, or exciting. Had they done something to reinvigorate this genre of vehicles, I would give Ford some credit. As it is, the Mustang is a decent styling exercise, some nice suspension improvements, in the front anyways, but thats it. The thread is actually about the massive problems in the automotive industry, which I posted were attributable to the lack of innovation. The Mustang isn't innovative, in the least...
But the new Mustang, although very nice, did not change anything. When Subaru brought the WRX over in 02, immediately, based off the instant success, Dodge started working on the SRT4, Mitsubishi stated they would bring the Evo here, which in turn forced Subaru to also bring the STi, Mazda I think started with the Mazdaspeed line, and then Chevy started working on the Cobalt SS. With the introduction of the Scion line, Honda brought the Fit, Nissan brought the Versa, Toyota also brought the Yaris line, etc... Subaru started a Sport Compact Turbo revolution. Toyota started a small car revolution. Ford, GM, and Chrysler haven't done anything even remotely similar in decades. Their last revolution was with the introduction of the Ford Explorer for the most part, and the SUV revolution.
Although, isn't it a little early to tell if other automakers will follow the trend? GM did... although a little late I know. Nissan did bring back the GT-R... I think if it happens, it will happen slowly.
No, the issue is that UNIONS work for American car companies. There are plenty of foreign car companies that have Americans assemble them! BMW has a plant in South Carolina, Kia is working on one in GA, Honda has one in Alabama, Toyota has one in Kentucky and I am sure there are more that I am forgetting. But all the foreign companies are avoiding the unions like the plague, because they cannot afford the union workers and still be competitive. Its just economics; the market has shifted. I bet all the non-big 3 workers get a decent wage. I bet they get health insurance too. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying unions are all bad or anything. I DO think unions are no longer competitive internationally, and something MAJOR is going to have to change for the American Car Manufacturers to have a shot at surviving...
I agree Unions are not cost effective and were created for differen't times. What's the point of protecting American workers if their jobs are then outsourced or manufacturing is outsourced. If anything there should be new incentives for hiring American workers and keeping manufacturing here i.e. tax breakes for companies that hire and manufacture domestically. Simply stating there are better ways to secure jobs than Unions. disclaimer: This reply was not created to cause a political debate or thread jack in this manner.
Okay, seriously, hope your not inferring that the GT-R was in some way a response to the Mustang. The GT-R is exactly the type of car that American Companies are incapable of producing right now. Its a vehicle that is innovative in every way and has ALL the other manufacturers trying to launch a response. This includes Porsche. When was the last time anyone at Porsche even thought about Ford? They probably don't even know Ford still exists....(and lets not talk about the Ford GT....)
I'm not comparing the GT-R and Mustang, just the trend of bringing back past cars is showing up is all.
guys if ya'll read the news article, the WHOLE industry is shit-taking the us corps are just going to be hardest hit in THIS country because of some of the reasons mentioned here and the fact that many of them were FINANCED by some bank or another that has either gone tits to the sky, or tightened their lending specs.
The article talks about an impact world wide, but only our three automakers are currently on the verge of an implosion. VW, Honda, Nissan and Subaru are seeing less downturn than others currently, largely because of their product lineups. The Europeans are feeling a squeeze, but their problems are demand issues, concurrent with the slow down, not lack of desire for their product. Toyota is getting slammed a bit because of their crazy bid to out "big" GM....
^^dats a fact JACK! to think that these foreign companies are struggling with innovative products it should be no surprise that our auto industry is in such bad shape. Belv is right on the mark nothing worth a shit coming from the american auto industry period.