so, i`ve been wanting to pair up my tokico d-specs with either the rce yellows or the swift spec r. today i drove a 04 sti with rce yellow (version ii) with new struts in the rear and 28mm swaybars up front, and to be honest, i was quite disappointed. maybe its the lack of stiffer swaybar in the rear, or perhaps the tokicos are much better than the sti inverted struts, i dont know what it is exactly but the yellows and the prodrives that i have on the car right now dont feel "night and day". now, i went for a ride in crazyazn's sti,(RCE tarmac 2s i think?) and his car handles like the car is stuck on the road but there is no way i could drive it everyday because it is too bouncy. considering the spring rates, i am thinking something in the 400-500 range will be the 'perfect stiff' for me, so what are my options?
I had the Yellows on stock struts... Stance was perfect, but was a horrible daily... The smallest pebble resulted in your teeth rattling...
you see i`m confused by that though because when i drove them today they didnt feel stiff AT ALL... if anything, my current set-up (d-specs and prodrive blue springs) give you the bobblehead way more. do you have bigger wheels by any chance?
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.3.7; en-us; ADR6400L Build/FRG83D; CyanogenMod-7.2.0) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1) The tarmac 2's are firm. When you rode in my car, it was essentially at the recomended track settings. However it softens up quite nicely, and on the all seasons I've gotten the bobble head almost eliminated once but I forgot to note the settings. Additionally, I'm running 500/400 rate springs, at the time I talked to Myles at rce there was suggestion that you can do 400/350 and it makes for a better DD. I may be wrong but I think linear rate springs will always have some bobblehead effect, particularly on ga400.
"teeth rattling" is all subjective i'm used to a seriously firm ride so i think the prodrives feel soft
I would consider the RCE yellows soft in comparison with coilovers. They were the DD with some track use solution on my car with the RCE Bilsteins. The Tarmac 2's on crazyazn's car are custom valved KW's by Myles at RaceComp and they are sexy. You can soften up the settings for DD use but...as he said...400's seams can get a bit bouncy. It really boils down to what you really need and your threshold for a stiff ride on the road. The people I know that live downtown tend to want softer suspension for daily use as the roads are complete crap. Up around where I live (Alpharetta), we can get away with stiffer suspension due to the smoother roads minus 400. I travel a lot with the car so I wanted a balance between the two. If I just stayed in my area, I would be on a stiffer setup. With what you are saying...I would look for a better spring strut combo or maybe your struts are just on their last leg. A coilover setup is typically going to be as stiff as the Tarmac 2's or worse if you go with cheaper ones. It isn't all about spring rate as damping control and rebound also play a big part in how the car rides. Just my .02.
my d specs are virtually brand new as it has maybe 4-5 oil changes since i put them on. my issue with crazyazn's set up isnt just on 400, even on a perfectly smooth road the suspension is so stiff it picks up minute surface differences and bobbles. that being said, it corners so scary at a mindblowing speed you almost want to forget about the ride ... i`d like to go for a ride in his softest set up and see if that is something i can live with everyday to consider another set up. I`ve been doing some reading on the TIC coilovers which seems like something i want.
to me, the prodrives on d-specs give me worse ride than the rce yellows on stock sti struts because the car moves up and down SO MUCH more... i prefer a ride that is firm and not much movement. prodrives are wayyy too soft and low for me. soft isnt really all that comfortable for me, but i can understand why most people told me to go for the prodrive springs when i had stock struts.
Another note, is the general life cycle of coilovers before needing rebuilding. From what I've read the T2's seem to be from 20-40k miles, and at the time I purchased mine, I was told $250 a corner for the work. I've got about 15k on mine, and I don't feel or hear any difference, and I'm not actually sure how dramatic of a change I would get when they need refreshing. That along with the ride comfort, maybe the good strut and spring combo is still a better option for you and your DD needs. Sure it may not feel as stiff as a coilover setup, but that rigidness and bobble/bouncing doesn't necessarily mean a faster car in the turns.
I'll be at the dinner meet tonight, I can turn down the settings in the parking lot, been a long time since I've done that, so the results may be iffy. The TIC coilovers are supposed to be super nice also, and years back I read somewhere (IWSTI?) that the valving is not as aggressive as the T2's and resulted in a much nicer DD ride.
I've had my RCE T2s since the end of 06 and they are awesome. I'm running the 500\450 spring setup and will likely try 500\500 next and if that doesn't work Ill go to a 600 square setup. I don't find it to be that bouncy but my tolerance for harsh ride is pretty high. They are leaps and bounds better than any of the other so called cheap coilovers on the market.
i definitely need more seat time on auto-x or track but yea i`m well aware of the coilover maintenances which is the reason why i decided to go the strut/spring combo, but it seems like they are just not stiff enough for me :rofl:
No its not too bad, i have long allen wrenches running to the tops of the CO's in the rear so i can adjust them with the seats in place. I'll try messing with it during lunch so I can figure out if i should adjust it again when I get to the meet.
print out the pdf from KWs website because one is clockwise for stiffer and the other is counter clockwise. Matt
I love my T2's. I've got about 30,000+ miles on them and I haven't needed to "refresh" or rebuild them yet. I'm running 24mm sway front and rear, factory end links, PDE camber plates up front and the Group N tophats in the rear. The only bounciness or bobble head I ever get I've isolated to the shatty STi seats. You're doing it right, test out what you can through other people's choices to make your own. What is too stiff for one might be just right for others. my 2 pennies.
i know you already know this, but just a reminder. everything is a compromise. want to be scary mindblowing cornering speeds? then you're going to feel every ripple in the road. want "comfortable" and livable? the expect it to be softer.
right... i find prodrives uncomfortably soft and bouncy... i actually prefer the solidity of crazyazn's car (T2s); it might pick up all the minute surface differences and cause a bobblehead (granted the stock sti seats dont help), when you hit a large bump, the dampers do their job and the chassis doesnt wobble around, whereas my prodrives go everywhere when i hit a large bump. the prodrives handle the slow speed better, but it's not that much different than the T2s on full soft... in fact the T2s were bouncy (especially the rear) because it was too soft :rofl: my next research will be based on progressive springs on coilovers; the progressive springs might not communicate as sharply as the linear ones, but it may just be the answer to get rid of the bobblehead in the low speed.
you can go with dual springs on coil-over setups though I can't think of ever seeing that offered for Subaru.
Like Robb and I said last night, I think you are at the point where a good phone call to Myles at RCE can be of great information to you. Also, yes thinking back to how I had the T2's set last night, I definitely had the rear rebound set way to soft.
just got off the phone with myles... found out that the T2s are not offered for my car anymore been doing a lot of reading on the KW Var.3s and it looks really impressive. i`m basically sold on the Var.3s but i`m gonna try to find someone that has the TIC SSTs to further solidify my hypothesis
*update* went for a ride in Patrick's BC coilovers and i was really pleasantly surprised... it may be the right firmness for me. if you are cross-shopping between the BC coilovers and the ST coilovers, which one and why? obviously BCs have more adjustment and it is easier to maintain, but the STs look like they are built with more quality and it comes with KWs preset settings...hell, KWs build them.
What are ST coilovers. Whats your budget for the coilovers? How about AST or JRZ, both have some singles available now that are fairly affordable for a high end coilover.
STs are suspension techniques. I was thinking of saving up for a KW variant 3, and then went for a ride in the BC coilovers and decided that variant 3s are probably an overkill for what i want to do. I`m pretty set on the BCs but the ST coilovers (made by KWs) looks like another good option to tinker about... it may lack the adjustability of the BCs but may have better dampening... only if i can find someone that has em on their car
^ This. I know people have run BC a lot lately due to their price, but they are not on the same level as the KW's by a long shot. Also, their adjustability isn't all that great. Yes, they have a wide range of adjustment on the knobs but that doesn't translate as well to the actual circuits. I am having a hard time figuring out how you ended up on BC's after being as picky as you have been. BC's are what NASIOC hellaflush guys use to slam their cars. If that is your budget then that is your budget and there is no knocking that. We all do what we can with what we have available. I for one am not going to knock someone's car with BC's that really puts their heart and soul into their build, but you started off with a list of real potentials to land on BC's? I'm confused.
Rob trust me i`m really confused as well haha. doing more research on the ST coils at the moment.. BCs arent as bad as i thought and it`s certainly an upgrade (in my opinion) from what i have. but since i dont need the adjustability, and trust KWs pre-settings STs might be the way to go since they are built with more quality materials for only a bit more. the big upside for BC is that they are based in the states and rebuilding can be done quickly and it is inexpensive.. as far as the budget goes, what i really want is a competent daily driver and the variant 3s might be an overkill for what i want to do... but i can certainly see someone that needs them will buy them and i think it's money well spent for a high quality part. but yea for the most part I think the ST coilovers are looking real good at the moment. it has the rate that I want/need and i never really felt the need for the dampening adjustment (although it is fun to play with). a ride in one with ST coils would answer all these questions though
So I fell behind on your suspension research, and I didn't want to cloud the dinner thread. I haven't ridden in a car with ST's, or heard much about them, so I'm curious what aspect about them sold you on them. Not trying to push the T2's just curious about what differences you noticed between them.
well, for one, i can afford one haha. i would like all the adjustability and the external reservoir but to this date i have never tracked my car... i really want to, and i will in the future, but my car as a daily driver, it just may be an overkill. i really want progressive set up in the rear for comfort but Myles flat out told me they suck and Tony@turninconcepts also hinted the same, so I`m looking to go with a 400/350 linear swift springs on the STs. sucks that i had to leave early haha. and i think i have a buyer for my current set up so it could be sooner than i think till i get the STs.
Ah gotcha, well seeing that you talked to probably the two most knowledgeable subie suspension people. I'm presuming you'll be good to go. Definitely interested in going for a ride along when you get them.
just talked to Clint@tunrin and he tells me i should do a track day first and then tell him what i want... apparently i would not know what i want, spend a ton of cash on something different, be frustrated, and then change my set-up again haha.
Yah i can see that, I still haven't done a real track day, so im definitely under utilizing the t2's but thats more a lack of time/schedule conflicts for me
Here Andy do this... https://www.motorsportreg.com/index.../uidEvent/AAEC30A0-012A-63F3-2EBBA19C8517AC1C