Jeffs conclusion: On the Dyno Conclusions The EFR7670 is a turbo that I personally feel compares more like A GT3582R, but spools faster on the dyno (like a GT or GTX3582R w/.63Ar). Comparing the EFR7670 to a GTX3076, its slightly laggier, but that lag is a trade off for more power. Since the GTX3076R and EFR7670 have very similar compressor maps, the HP gained is do to the higher flowing turbine housing/wheel. Since the dyno is very controlled, and a high loaded run, in all these tests the super light Titanium Aluminide turbine wheel doesn't come into play at all. What this does show is the turbine wheel and compressor wheel design is a notch up over the Garrett GTX stuff. From what I have seen Borg Warner has designed a turbo that does what they say it should. It makes more power and spools faster than the GT3582R. On the Road Conclusions My conclusions are this. The dyno conclusions do not match what I "feel" on the road. On the road, I feel like this is much more lively than the GT or GTX3076R. Its interesting as in some road tests the EFR7670 shows the same spool up RPM as the GTX3076 w.82ar, but it feels so much snappier between shifts light load low RPM shifts. Meaning the normal day to day 2000-4000RPM shifting is about 50% better than it was before. In some logs I notice that the GTX would show say 2-3psi of boost at these really low RPM's, where the EFR is showing about 5psi. Its only a couple PSI but that makes huge difference in how it feels. You can see this on the dyno graphs where the EFR is making more TQ at 2000-2500. Under full throttle high RPM acceleration, again the car feels a bit faster. It feels like Its right back on the power. When comparing this to the GTX3582R graphs I have, it blows it out of the water. When comparing it to the GTX3076, its very close in respool time, but there is this thing that just "feels" better. I am compiling some road going plots of the GTX3076R and EFR and I think this will show what I am feeling. Final Conclusions I used to think that there are lots of turbos out there, depending on the size of the turbine, its going to spool at a particular RPM, depending on the compressor wheel used, your redline and boost, its going to make a given HP. So then it was a matter of what size wheels Garrett and others used to create a given turbo and it was a balancing act of spool and HP. But Borg Warner has proven that there is some magic left in its turbos in that it actually spools faster than its comparable GTX/GT3582R turbo and makes almost the same power, if not more on the GT3582R. PERRIN Performance will hold off on making conclusions about the entire EFR line when we are able to test an EFR7064 and the 8374. After seeing when these spool up, and the HP they make, I think we and other customers can decide if the EFR is here to stay. What I suspect is that the other EFR turbos are going perform better in one way or another to the Garrett product but will fall in between Garret part numbers in some way. That is not bad as it will make for a big balancing act of price, spool, HP, durability, features and feel. What is next? I am going to beg and beg to get a test EFR 7064 turbo and in the mean time, I should have the test 8374 turbo from Full-Race any day and that will be bolted on and dynoed. I think this turbo will make more power, but I hate to say, I am not going to be running it high enough boost or high enough redline to really see where it kicks butt. For these tests I will be dynoing it purely to see when it builds boost. I will do the 1.7bar and 1.9 bar runs just for fun, but its not going to be making that much more power.....right??? Over the last couple of weeks I have been asked: Are we giving up on Garrett? No way! These turbos are very well proven and while they sometimes have a bad name in the quality department, I can say over the last 2 years we have had 3 warranty issues come up. Relative to how many we have sold, that % is very very low. I see that they will always have their place and customers will always want a Garrett turbo with an external wastegate. Lots of fun stuff to come over the next few months! Borg Warner EFR Turbos EFR7670 Lets start with simple things like pics. I have a bunch more coming don't worry! Even the badge is way nicer! The compressor wheel is amazing looking just wait until the shroud comes off. http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/borgwarner_efr/efrgtxsidebyside.jpg EFR is 3.25" taller overall and like others have said, this is going to be a challenge to fit into the car for sure! This is probably my favorite part of the whole turbo. The SS housing is very high quality and the internal wastegate routing is very cool. The angle of the exit is angled perfectly off the inlet. VERY cool. Another angle showing the turbine. One of the things i was looking forward is the BOV and how its integrated. It just like the Mini coopers we deal with that have a very similar style. The pressure port is tiny, the spring is pretty weak, but small port means less overall force acting upon it. I know guys are going to be concerned that the port is too small to dump the boost it might see, but it works fine on Minis running 24psi, as well as a bunch of other euro cars. There are stiffer springs available for them but we will have to see how these work first. The EFR compressor housing is smaller OD than the Garrett. Also has a smaller inlet, which is great for fittment reasons and shouldn't hinder HP at all. HEre is a side by side of the EFR and the Garrett housings. You can see which one is much nicer. The EFR casting is smooth, not dinged up as though its been thrown across the floor a few times.
Continued: Here are the other important things to compare. I tried to take a picture showing the finish of the two wheels. I think it came out pretty good. The EFR wheel is a machined forging and you can see the feed rate of the machining is very slow making these pretty much polished! Compare the GTX wheel and you can see how much faster they machine the part by the deeper grooves. Borg Warner really took their time making these new turbos really nice. Its hard to see in this pictures, but the GTX wheels are much shorter compared to the EFR compressor wheels. Its very interesting up close as they shape of the fins are very very different. Its like comparing fins on a ceiling fan to fins on a jet engine. The one part that i think really make people go crazy is the Gamma Titanium turbine wheel. Its finish is very very nice. The flat bottom of the turbine wheel makes it very strong and also more aerodynamic compared to the split Garrett type. Again the turbine wheel fin design is different. The Garrett turbine wheel is shaped different, and also has a much thinner cross section. You can almost make it out in the pics. Brock at Borg Warner told me that you have to go up a size in the EFR turbine wheel OD, to compare against a Garrett. In this case 70mm EFR will be similar to the 60mm GTX. Which this makes more sense base on the overall volume the turbine wheel being slightly less with an EFR of the same given OD as a Garrett. Beside that stuff here are some other cool pics from BWTS. This cross section shows why the turbo is so much longer. The dual caged ceramic ball bearings are spread far apart for stability, notice the 4 oil seals (Garrett has 2), the oiling mechanism is designed to push oil to the front and back bearings, the coolant jacket spreads deep into the turbine wheel area, the really cool BOV return port and all the other really cool stuff. You can really tell this is over built and designed for abuse. Here is the GT3076R. You can't see the bearings in this but you get the idea.They don't recommend going 20 degrees of kilter with the EFR, but with the better oil slinger and dual seals on both ends, i bet you could do close to 45 degrees. These are the 3 main castings used on all the current models of the turbos. Now the fun begins trying to make this fit! EFR Turbo Technical Brief Here is a very in depth article about the EFR turbos and how they came to be. This article is what really got me going on these turbos. Never before has turbo company done this kind of public documentation. Click Here to Download EFR Turbo Technical breif.pdf
We have several EFR turbos of our own at this point as well as pictures, but unfortunately, we do not have the GTX to compare them to. In talking to him, Jeff plans to try to swap out the two turbos, same day, same car, same dyno.
Now this is quite interesting to me as the wastegate actuator on the EFR is the wrong one. This one is cracking open at 10-14 psi depending on preload. With the correct one on there onset of boost should be quite interesting. These are lower boost runs on both turbos and the EFR7670 is beating out the GTX3582R.
This is all cool and dandy but do you ever do your own testing and research and not ride the bandwagon of other shops work to benefit from yourself?
Give him some time, only S&S woke one morning as gods gift to innovation and tuning. Everybody else had to learn through hard work and determination.
Yes, we were one of the first to put a Borg Warner on a Subaru if you think back. And in fact we built the kits in house rather than just bolting on someone else's kit. We just have not had a Subaru customer for these just yet and I personally do not have the resources to buy one for myself right this second. Killshot received two of the first publicly available EFR turbos. We have a Miata with one, a Toyota MR2 that will be getting one here in the next couple months. Just no Subarus yet. Again, I am trying to share something I found interesting with the local Subaru community.
You know how much your attitude poorly reflects on your business? Seriously dude. I was just stating that Killshot needs to do their own research and proving instead of posting links to other shops results. All you are trying to do is use other results to promote your own products. Just my opinion. Look at Topspeed....they are proving and listing things themselves. Same goes to Forged.....they are testing and reporting back with real world results from their own findings. I don't see either of the other sponsors posting and using results from other shops to market their own products.
Dellete, I was providing this as something I thought the community as a whole might be interested in, a new series of turbos. Chances are there will be a Perrin kit out that will be quite cheap. This is almost like promoting a product we don't even currently sell as we do not currently sell Perrin parts. Please quit trying to downgrade our business to make others look good, it is not appreciated. We all know who you stand behind. It is not necessary to try to downplay others to make Topspeed look good. Let their results speak for themselves. This was an informative post that I was trying to share with the community as a whole as these are some really cool turbos. Nothing else. I thought the thread was worthy of note. If anything it is promoting Perrin as his name is stamped all over it, lol.
Topspeed had NOTHING to do with my post dude. It was a legit question because all I have seen is cross posts from other shops yet NOTHING from Killshot. I want to see something from Killshot Subaru related.....I personally think these turbos have a lot of promise. So sorry if I look like I'm trying to downgrade the shop......but Andy doesn't help with that too much with his stupid replies. I commend you on thoughtful responses though Mike.
I wish we DID have something to bring to you guys with a EFR on a Subaru right now. I wish I had the cash to throw one of these on my car right now But, soon enough. I still have to get my transmission build and my other turbo sold and then maybe we can get one on a Subaru. As for Andy, I think he gets tired of personal attacks on his character and business when no one has really seen all that he does on a daily basis. Just because it is not on these forums, does not mean that he is doing nothing. He has 5 project cars in the shop right now, all of which are getting extensive builds. He also runs the shop as well as working on the cars, answering the phone, making quotes and still trying to get things done. He is just trying to work hard and earn a living to help feed his 47 kids (He and his wife recently had twins).
"So sorry if I look like I'm trying to downgrade the shop......but Andy doesn't help with that too much with his stupid replies." The reason I get so aggravated at some of the threads and discussions on here is because people who are supposed to know what they are talking about, DO NOT. I have a problem with that. "You know how much your attitude poorly reflects on your business? Seriously dude." My attitude does not affect my business at all, there is a reason I have been in business for 17 years. "I was just stating that Killshot needs to do their own research and proving instead of posting links to other shops results. All you are trying to do is use other results to promote your own products." We research and develop EVERYTHING we install on Subarus, Hondas, BMW, Ford, Chevrolet and Dodge performance parts. We do not hunt and pick through catalogs for everything that goes on cars that we build. "Just my opinion. Look at Topspeed....they are proving and listing things themselves. Same goes to Forged.....they are testing and reporting back with real world results from their own findings." If another shop does something great and develops or tests a part, that is great and I commend them. The same is true for Perrin, a brand we have not even carried.
Everyone reading this thread, I swear to god I am NOT a asshole. I am easily irritated when I get hungry, sorry dilette I ate dinner. I am much better now.
Since this thread was about Perrins testing... it seems the early testing of the EFR 7670 are a bit of a let down to me. Spools up a tad bit faster then the 35r but makes less power... be it because the think doesn't hold boost steady or whatever.. it still isn't the huge numbers everyone was expecting.
I will be curious to see what it does when the wastegate is not blowing open early though. In all honestly I think the GtX3582 will outflow the EFR 7670 on the top end though. But in the lower regions of the map I think the EFR will hold its own.
Yea but whats the point.. its has allready be proven that the GTX3076 makes the same power as the GTX35 up to high 400's and spools 4-500 rpms faster. So here at sub 400whp the EFR barely keeps up. The GTX3076 would destroy the EFR turbo in all areas on a pumpgas suby... so again whats the point?
Graph of the GTX3076 at 17.4psi... which is less then the EFR's yet it makes the same power and spools faster... Now this would be a real world test for 80% of all subaru owners since most will not run over 18-19psi on pumpgas and very few people run meth injection. GTX3076 boost response GTX3076 at 21psi... pretty much the limit for a pumpgas subaru and what is safe. Anything above this boost level and you would some sort of octane modifier. Even still at this boost level they made 430whp.. pretty freaking stout powerband.
My half ass attempt at chopping the two boost charts together, this shows the boost response of the gtx3076 vs efr7670 vs GTX35
It's cool man.....I realize it was typed awkward and I'm famous for that. I just want to see some real testing from these turbos over here and not out west :wiggle: Ya'll have had the turbos in hand for a while and I'm getting impatient. Even though I don't have a Subaru I still have a love for them and always will. A nice fast car is a nice fast car.
In regards to the turbo we had, we had everything ready to go, and the decision was made by the owner to build the motor while the car was down. Things should be finishing up later this month or early next month. As for the EFR 7670, it is shaping up to look more like the gtx35r. There is of course still the EFR 7064 which may end up being more like the gt3076. It is hard to say exactly which turbos line up to the Garret line. But watching these tests is interesting. The new high boost wastegate is coming in this week. I look forward to the results. Just as there is a place for the gt 3076 and gt35r, I believe seeing what each of the efr turbos has to offer will be good for comparative purposes as well.
I was really on the fence about order the GTX3076 or the EFR....I'm glad I went with the GTX now. While the test may not be complete its enough data to convince me that it was the right choice.
I cant see how in this case displacement is even relative. So far the EFR hasn't performed at the level of a GTX in Perrins test, As far as I know its a stock 2.5.
Come interesting new results. Dyno graph in the 2nd post. Final 1.7 bar dyno posted up in post #1....so it looks like the GTX won for about 1000 rpms and then for the next 3000 rpms the EFR beat out the famed GTX3076. I guess the little EFR is proving itself.
In all honesty, the Garret GTX3076 and GT3076 still have a place if your goal is low pressure ratios and you plan to stay under 20 psi. The EFR (as is my personal experience with other Borg Warners) does not really come alive until 20+ psi. If you are octane limited, the Garrets are fine. If you plan to run meth, E85 or race gas, I think the Borg Warner turbos are definitely a good choice. I am anxious to see what the 7064 that Jeff tests does and how our little EFR6758 Miata turns out. Another interesting note, the EFR was also making less engine noise compared to the Garret GTX at the same timing.
Wow! 20 psi by 3350 is pretty darn quick! This is from the EFR7064. That little turbo looks pretty darn promising for a crazy quick spooling street turbo! I guess he is still playing with the wastegate actuator and has not put together a final tune on it till he tries out his new prototype actuator from Perrin.
For one you are comparing a BB turbo to a hournal bearing turbo. I heard the other day that one of the bigger EFR turbos is coming to a Subaru in the area. Can't wait to see the outcome!
You have a boost leak, vac leak on the BCS, BCS issue, or a failing turbo (cracked wastegate,etc) most likely.
No....if your VF turbo isn't spooling until 4800rpms something is screwed up and you very well could be doing damage....its not my first rodeo junior.
full boost at 4800...... Should be at 4200 if i look back when scott first tuned it. The inlet is torn, I got a new one sitting here, hopefully that will fix the problem. If not, ill go from there.
FYI this is a legitimate 2.0 setup with vf39, yours should be spooling prettyyyyyy damn close.(the graph is my old wagon)