Perrin Equal Length Header discussion

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98132

Please respond here or on iwsti, I didnt want to copy each reply over so hope you guys don't mind the link

 

The perrin header sucks. I wouldn't put one on my car if it was free. I have had two cars that have actually gained power by returning to the stock manifold. One car gained as much as 30hp up top. To me its only good with the stock turbo. It has tiny primaries and gives you good mid-range which is all you got with the stock turbo. Once you upgrade past stock its horrible.

 

wow, thanks a lot

do you mind if i copy your statement over to iwsti? I can delete your name if you wish

by the way, how do you like the full-race header? Curious to hear your thoughts

 

That is interesting. I don't know anything about it really, but I would think that having equal length headers would be a lot better than unequal length, especially for a turbo application (the even exhaust flow would spool a turbo faster). Is the Perrin just a bad header, or is equal length just not that important?

 

stock is best.

 

Ported stock is best

 

bah...thats 'stock'...

I've got ported stockers with the BPM crossover pipe and random tech upipe.

 

what is the ID of crossover and uppipe?

 

the same as the gasket...I'll measure tomorrow. I'm installing the BPM/RT peices tomorrow.

 

^thank you sir

 

Even if there were HP gains to be had, the one WRX that I rode in that had equal length headers was missing its' boxer rumble.

The car sounded smooth like a Mazda or other econo ride.

 

that's why the words "boxer rumble" are actually a misnomer. its mainly due to the unequal length header. you could actually get a "boxer~ish rumble" by putting unequal length headers on just about anything. just sounds choppier. Porsche's are a great example, they are boxer engines, but have equal length headers.


correct me if i'm wrong....

 

Bah, SOJ thought equal length was good enough to make all of the twin-scroll cars equipped with EL headers. That says something right there but it might just work out better regarding twin-scroll exhaust pulses. I've always heard the same, that EL headers lose power everywhere, although I'm surprised even with larger turbos they still underperform the stock header.

 

but according to this thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1110218 that on a 35r, there was actually power gained, about 10whp through the rpm range but the most important thing is how much faster the big turbo comes to full boost

Note, on this turbo setup it should have been easily into the 400whp range with a 35r however it is not the case, but the important thing is the gains over the stock that should be focused on. Overall the Perrin header did gain power over the entire RPM range, however we have no clue if that's the case once you are over the 400whp range.

 

that header test was done by PDX which is next door to Perrin. Of course they are going to say it makes power. Don't believe everything that is posted online.

 

That means ignore everything posted by 'slowwrx'

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

for 19.99 I will buy three so both you and Ped can have one too :lol:

 

dont forget the 5.95 S&H.

 

and if you order in the next ten seconds we'll send you a combination nose hair trimmer/flashlight FREE. ORDER NOW!

 

Doug are 'any' headers beneficial on an STi engine with a 30R? Or is stock best?

 

You know what Will FUCK YOU.

I've never given out info on this forum that was incorrect, just because you think that everything stock Subaru is best doesn't make it so. If you want to play this little game I can post about all the quality SOG work I have seen come into Batlground while I was up there working on J's Car.

I'm over all the cute little comments about me and all the trash talking you have been doing about Siegel behind his back....don't think that kind of stuff doesn't make it back around. If you really want to keep doing this Ill post it all.

 

Back on topic, my Full-Race Manifold will be here next week. Ill have back to back data to post.

The factory design is horrible, there is no reason a well designed header should'nt pick up power.

Thats probally why Full-Race told me that if I didn't gain atleast 35whp then they would refund me my money.

 

Lets keep it on topic guys and stop pointing fingers. If you want the kiddie drama please take it off line.

 

Its not kiddie drama I had a discussion with Alex about this the other day. I'm over it.

 

I'm going to, post will be up in a couple of hours, its going to take a while to make sure its all perfect.

 

Man! I want more guarantees like that!

 

It just shows what kind of company they are. They are super nice guys, they do tons of R&D and they are willing to stand behind their products.

Matt

 

If you want to stay single scroll I belive it is $2498, if you want to go twinscroll its $2598.

The great thing about the Full-Race stuff is that if you go twinscroll T3 and you want to go T4 later you can, the upipe is like $700. You can get the manifold coated for another 300 bucks.

I think Batlground is going to be running a special, if any of you guys are interested I can probally get mike to do a group buy. I bet I can get him to do 10% off, they wouldn't make much money at that price but Full-Race would be very happy they are moving Subaru Manifolds.

Matt

 

I think we will be doing a test of the Full-Race versus the DC manifold on mannings car if logistics allow.

i cna do 10% off retail+shipping

 

The subaru community has gotten to used to putting this garbage from China on their cars. Quality parts cost lots of money.

 

is it true that the Full-Race manifold/uppipe combo only fit their own brand turbo and downpipe? For example for someone who already went rotated with either a Perrin or Ultimate-racing kit has to re do everything to get the manifold to fit correct?

I know full-race makes an uppipe fot fit the stock location turbo but was wondering if they made something for thos already went rotated without swapping out to their turbo and downpipe combo

 

You have to have to use their downpipe or make youre own, as far as turbos go....you can use any turbo you would like

 

I can see where this is going.

Late night sniper mission.

 

Unnecessary.

 

Fight fire with fire when all else fails.

Ball-less's comments are completely unwarranted.

 

Now this is where I have to disagree....not that there are a lot of good options out there for the Subaru in a lot of categories, but import people in general have gotten used to paying CRAZY prices for parts. You can get a NICE set of headers (yes 2 of them, not just one like on 4 bangers) for a Ford small block or Chevrolet small block for under $600. Hell I bought a nice set of equal length headers for my old 5.0 mustang that were ceramic coated for $500 on sale. Same goes for intakes, cold air kits, and a variety of other things. I can get a set of heads ported for a Mustang for around $1200...for 2 of them. Price for imports is like $1200 for ONE head. While I do agree that the Subaru manifold needs some work, I think that there really needs to be a decent line of quality parts for reasonable prices for imports of all sorts and especially the Subaru. So much potential in the Subarus but everyone wants to charge an ASS load for the parts to make it go fast.

 

prices are indeed inflated, but it's usually demand that drives them up... back to the topic, I have discovred quite a bit about the Perrins on the iwsti thread.

 

It really doenst matter what works and what doesnt, people are going to buy the cheapest thing that has the best advertisement.

The ebay intakes are the same as the prodrive and buschur...but since those were marketed better than the ebay ones, people got suckered into them. But anyone who does any reasonable price research will see that those intakes are the same as the $40 intakes on ebay....and get one of those and the ppl who have the prodrive/buschur intake are going to be stuck with them forever.

headers are no different. There is no magical formula. No matter how much money you spend or dont spend...you DO NOT NEED ONE until you want more than 600 hp...and at that point, you are going to be spending big money anyways, so maybe by then the parts will actually work.....but they still will not work on lower hp cars.

Since I dont need or want 600hp...or 500, or 400...then stock for an STi is fine and dandy.

I'd even settle for 180hp/180tq at the crank from an EJ253 in the form of a 2000 2.5 RS sedan in BRP with a Coupe wing and 5MT. Thats next.

 

I'll have to disagree with you on that as well, the set of Kooks headers for my Mustang were $1600. Nice stainless headers are expensive. Those cheap BBK headers and stuff are garbage and they fall apart just like the cheap china stuff.

 

A properly sized header will always make more power than the stock manifold.

 

I had a set of the "crappy" headers on my 5.0 for 8 years and they barely discolored and made a nice gain in hp...$600 for equal length long tubes. I can't recall the brand off hand, but they worked well and made an extra 45 hp throughout the rpm range on my 331 stroker with ported heads. At that price I could almost buy 3 of the Kooks headers...

 

And even such...that SHOULD be $800 for a 4 cylinder header not $2600. That price is just not something the average consumer is going to or SHOULD pay. I am sure they are very nice headers and all, but that is just out of the price range for the overwhelming majority of people for a minor gain.

 

The price of a NA Header is quite different from a turbo manifold. the exhaust gas pressure and heat are quite different. I believe that my kooks are 16 gauge, the full-race manifold is 8 gauge. I know Full Race and Kook Back Purge all their welds, BBK etc I would say its highly unlikely.

 

then i guess nascar runs EBay headers. ANd burns stainless will be going out of business soon.

Thats a flat out FALSE statement Will, i wouldnt say that.

Problem is with the Subaru market is everyone is a follower, no one leads. I havent seen ANY testing of manifolds back to back, or anything even close.

How do you KNOW that a FULL RACE wont make 40whp over a stock header? how do you know that it wont allow you to make more power with less boost over MANUFACTURER "X".

We will be hopefully testing the Full-Race versus the DC and some other manifolds to provide the community with conclusive results. We will also be doing it for our own information to find out what works best.

Im new to the scooby market, but not new to engines or header design.

Ive conducted cam testing and header testing for companies like Hytech, RMF, SMSP, DTR/SSR, Skunk2, IPS, Buddy Club, Rocket Motorsports and many others.

Ive seen 15whp between an EBAY Header($130) and a RMF/SMSP header ($1000) on B series (HOnda motors)

Ive seen 50whp gains from FULLRACE manifolds vs Peakboost, an other SIMILAR tubular styles on SR20s, GSRs, 2JZs.

I expect to see similar hains from the scooby manifold.

My only point is that there is not alot of info IMO of what manifold is better COMPARED TO SOMETHING ELSE. Soon , we should have some info instead of just guessing

 

The only thing i can say with certainty is that Cosworth Heads and Cams arent worth the money, assuming the ones we have dynoed were properly setup.

 

Thats a big assumption, since they weren't setup by you guys.