Subaru WHP numbers- A serious Discussion

Let me start off first by stating:

I AM NOT A SUBARU MECHANIC
I AM NOT A SUBARU TUNER
I HAVE NEVER WRENCHED ON A SUBARU

Now , i want to start a decent discussion on the variances i see in different setups with the Scoobys.

My Backround:
Honda/Acura engines, turbo setups and NA performance
Hold the record for most NA whp out of a B series engine in GA (237whp 2.0L)
Worked for 3 different "speed" Shops
Work closely with several BIG manufacturing companies (skunk2, hytech, SMSP, RMF, IPS)
Tested various combinations of parts from manufacturing companies
Consulted/built anything from 170whp NA engines to 690whp Turbo engines.

Subarus are new to me, ive only started learning about them since i came to Batlground. Most of my knowledge is from cars that have been tuned here (by Dan and Scott), Matt Balls projects, Friends Subarus, and Dynos posted by other shops (Topspeed, Dynoformance, etc).

I would like to hear different opinions and try to learn something as im bored at work right now

Ok well mainly im interested in what i call "the lack of real power" out of some crazy setups and $$$$$ spent.

How come i have friends with STOCK STI LONGbLOCKs with FP Reds and methanol making 500+whp, but guys with BUILT motors, GT35Rs, $7000 heads and cams can barely break 450whp?

How come guys with simple stock location turbos (Superzilla and Frank 60s) make 350whp (20psi) and ive seen dynos of VF39s that make 310whp. I mean we are talking about a stock turbo versus aftermarket an only a 40whp gain.

Why is it so hard to break the 500whp mark? Or how come we dont see enough of it.

I guess my main point is how come there are VERY HUGE differences in power levels, it seems to me there is no consistency unless its a bolt on only car.

Why do you guys run stock Turbo Manifolds? One would think that anything is better than a cast iron stock turbo manifold. Why run a 30R or a 35R with an OEM unit? Surely there has to be better out there.

How come ANY OTHER MOTOR with 30PSI and a GT35R makes over 600whp yet scoobys seems to be 100whp+ off that? Same with the 30R.

I mean hell Dan makes 420whp with a 30R on a STOCK BLOCK 2.0L SR20. Surely a 30R on a 2.5L STI engine should yield the same if not more power. Why dont they?

Again, im not calling anyone out, and i dont claim to be an expert. Im interested in what the rest of the community has to say.

-MIKE

 

The length of the exhaust manifold before the turbo makes a big difference. Evos and SRT-4s make me jealous with how close the turbo is to the exhaust ports. Hot fast gas spools turbos a lot better than the gas that cools down after travelling 2 feet or so from the drivers side head to the turbo.

I've got no clue about the built motor to stock motor power differences. My understanding with headers is that the stock one has a lot of heat shielding and is cast iron to try and retain as much heat as possible. Some of the cars with aftermarket headers lose power because the headers cool down between runs.

Another theory is also that most subaru modders are fairly conservative and unwilling to push the limits of stock stuff. This has changed in the last year or two but you still dont see many people going all out. Back in the day people considered a VF22 on a 2.0 laggy, nowadays you've got guys running GT35Rs on JDM 2.0s and revving them to 9K rpms.

Another factor is cams/heads which most subaru guys leave completely untouched. From the factory the heads and cams are setup for lots of midrange power but not as much topend. Cams are ridiculously expensive since you have to buy twice as many with the motor layout.

 

I'm no experct but I'll try to address each part separately ...

Hope that helps, just my thoughts on some of the things.

Also other things like the intake manifold is also not ideal because is squished to fit a top mount intercooler so it has little volume besides the runners and that will hurt power when you get into the upper rpms because you will need more "reservoir air" readily available from the intake manifold for the power stroke.

If you look at Matt's bugeye, everything is about efficiency.

 

Mike, check out Full Race's new setup for the STi. I think with enough time, more will be known, and more power will be made.

http://www.full-race.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1805

 

I am reserving my space in line so I can type it up....

Usually because the 'built engine' is made like rubber dog shit from hong kong.

What I do know from my personal experience is that most 'built' blocks are worse off than stock and I have never seen heads that looks 'good'...the Cosworth ones were pretty but I've seen home made port jobs perform better. The set of heads on Liquidforce's car drives beautifully. I did the valvetrian setup on it and someone else down in FL did all the porting. It was by no means a professional port job...but it works awesome.

Doug has a 'shop car' that's a good example of what not to do. Also, the Lowman STi made its 616whp on stock heads/cams/exhaust and intake manifold.

While there may be built engines that make good/lots of power...I still think there is really not anyone who truly knows what to do with a SUBARU engine to make huge HP numbers. Least of all me. I concentrate of driveability and usable power....and not big power either. I stop at 320-ish mark and then recommend someone else. Prodrive sure does know how to make a rally engine...300hp/500tq at 2400 RPM with 50psi. :naughty:

There is more to be learned from SUBARU engines. They have potential...but I firmly believe that we are not headed the correct direction for big power like we think it should make.

CN: Use the stock stuff.

The engine does not like big power on pump gas. Gotta run Meth/Race gas to get the powa.

Mainly because you have to run Meth/Race gas and a fairly large $ in supporting mods to get there...and then get the right tuner which is hard to come by. Otherwise, if everyone could get the parts cheap enough and any tuner could tune it to 500 reliably and easily...then everyone would have 500whp STi's.

Even stock every car is pretty different in power output. Seems that they are very sensitive to break in. The harder its broken in, the more power it makes. I also say its a matter of all the different dynos that we see plots on. Different tuners, different part combinations...etc etc...nothing is really consistent as not everyone does the same thing all the time.

There are very few manifolds (if any at all..last time I checked there were ZERO) that actually make more power with big turbos over the stock one. Yes a cheapo will make more power on stock and other small turbos...but its been proven time and time again that the stock pieces are better and more consistent with larger turbos. However, if one were able to properly engineer one...I imagine there is about a 30hp/30tq gain, if not more, to be had. Even just porting/polishing the stock pieces, changing the crossover pipe and optimizing the up pipe flow would net a large gain, I'm sure of it. I drive a large gain every day. The difference is night and day when compared to an almost identical car with a stock setup on it.

Because its a different engine. Thats all I got. I've heard this same complaint from everyone whos built other stuff and gone to SUBARU or started with SUBARU then gone to something else.

Well...they just dont. See the line before this one.

In the mean time...its a rally car, not a big hp/road course car.

 

1) Some Subaru tuning shops use Mustang dynos which report much lower than Dynojet dynos.
2) Subie's torque is better than a Honda's with similar HP's #'s (usually a wider powerband too)
I think many of those "600whp" honda's would be lucky to put out 400 ftlbs

 

^^^ I agree I would much rather have 400hp/400tq then most high hp honda that make 600hp/300tq.

Take the S2000, makes like 240hp and like 132tq.......at 10,000rpm.........

 

Posted.

 

Not sure what you mean by this, but my motor runs flawlessly and makes a ton of power with a very broad powerband. I have been through many other "engine builders" all have sucked, including Cosworth.

The head and cam package I run has no decrease in spool but makes picks up an avg of 15% in power.

Also the reason you see so many motors not make the power is because they use crap ebay parts, or pieces that do not work well together. Three years ago we came up with our power packages, not just for marketing but for a reason. They work

 

Just want to follow and see where else this thread goes. Good read btw!

 

I think we all come from hondas...lol. Funny, becouse I'm about to be starting a honda K swap (NA) here after the first of the year. I'm gathering all the info I'll be needing to start here soon.

Welcome... by the way.

 

Im really liking the responses.

We get "race" shop opinions and will adds to the "dealership" side of things to.

I have alot to post, but i just picked up Need For Speed ProStreet so im going to eat dinner and play that some

i will be back on in the morning to dissect the previous posts and to use some dynographs for comparison.

This should be a good thread :thumbup:

 

I'm looking forward to running the motor set up that you and Scott are recommending to me.:naughty:

 

If you need any help with that K, let me know, check out this test i did for skunk2 and IPS:

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23234

To this day one of the biggest threads ever on that forum

 

Maybe I should have worded it better. Austin's car. it has an entire list of what not to do, and what to do....thats the car i was talking about. I did not talk about the GC you have as I know nothing about it except that its stupid fast. :bowdown:

 

Wow... good stuff. I'm acually a MOD over at K-series.com (trendsracing)...lol. I've had a 03 ep and 06 type-s...lol. Not new to the k motor, but still have alot to learn. Thanks for the link. I'll let you know if I need nay help, thanks man.

 

no. :squint:

 

No. I started SUBARU, and will stay SUBARU. The only venture outside SUBARU that I'll have will be Ford. Thats only if I build a Dayona replica with a 427 in it. Still might go the 302 route and build it for 8,000 rpm reliably.

 

Ill have to check out that forum!

 

This is a great read. It's got me thinking deeper about where I want to eventually take my car.

And I'm hoping, like most of us, that someone out there finds the secret to making big power from WRXs and STis.

 

Looks like Batlground and slowwrx are on their way.

 

I have to tell you I feel like very little has been accomplished in the Subaru community since 2002.

Jeremys car made over 300whp on a stock 2.0 in 2003 it mad 407whp on race gas, where have we gone since then.

Dan tuned Jason New's STI to 540whp in 2004 on a stock bottom end.

It just seems to me the Subaru community hasn't advanced like it should. Everyone is afraid to push the envelope.

I've got 3 motors going together at the machine shop and I'm going to push two of them until they pop.

I want to see how long a subaru will run on track at 12.5 to 1 afrs.

 

i think another reason that you keep seeing the inconsistant data is that getting power out of a subaru is still a "new" thing. there is not a formula that any given person can follow (unlike the 4g63 or other engines). from the limited reading i have done here and on nasioc, it seems that there aren't many people out there willing to find the limits of the 2.5 or 2.0. those that have been doing research and testing new things have provided some wonderful discussions and ideas, but not everyone has the means or is willing to be a test bed.

 

I hope that's the case but I can't take all the credit, I pulled a lot of knowledge from a lot of different sources to put Jeremy's setup together. There's a lot of Engineering in that setup and most of that can be attributed to Dan. The porting on the motor is where a lot of the magic happens and that credit all belongs to Ball Engines who at the time had very little Subaru experince....which has turned out to be a good thing. The weren't blinded by all the typical Subaru Cliches that some "SUBARU" engine builders are blinded by.

There is no magic to making power. Its all about the package.

 

wrx

I can honestly say that I am amazed at the more professional and to the point threads that are started and posted in daily on this board compared to the other import boards i am a member of. I have been on IA for a while (yes before it crashed like three times) and was a fan of the 2.5 RS when they came out. I was on the fence and used to always drive american muscle. I can honestly say per dollar that i have spent on my WRX so far (and its not tuned yet) I am far more happy with the end result. It has alot more creature comforts not to mention driveability.

SORRY SORRY>.. not to stray from the topic at hand.

I started forum hoping looking for diff. aspects of where I wanted to go with my build. I have read the same statements/complaints about the diff. power taken from all the diff. build options. I would have to agree with WJM about the need for a dedicated tuner to look into some hardcore R&D for the wrx engine. It was def. nice to hit up a honda forum and read thousands of posts about one part. I love the direction i see this thread going. I am willing to offer my car up for some r&d if needed... ... and am willing to help pay/source any stock pieces needed for porting... etc...

Other than that let me know what i can do... :bigthumb:

 

Being a researcher by profession, I know that one must borrow from various areas to find success. No point re-inventing the wheel when proven resources exist. The one with the insight to bring all the pieces to work together in harmony deserves the most credit.

 

my two cents on this discussion is people have been tuning and pushing a lot of these other engines
(sr20's 4g63's and every honda engine ever etc.) for more than 15 years now for the most part. Subaru has only been a major force in the american tuning market for maybe 6-7 years at the most. Also parts and engines in general are still more expensive than compared with most other cars. when i had my talon i blew up my motor and got a jdm motor and tranny for like 800 bucks. so i had no fear pushing the crap out of the motor since it was almost nothing to start all over again. If i blow up my sti motor or tranny I am shit out of luck. so i am not going to go crazy on this car and try and find the limits...

 

I think part of the magic of Jeremy's setup is the short runners on the exhaust manifold. The short inter cooler piping doesn't hurt but the amount of time it takes to pressurise inter cooler piping is really short.

 

I was at publix reading their only import magazine and came across D sport. This months issue has a really good article on the ej25 and how to produce power out of it. Go check it out. A lot of the stuff it talks about has already been covered in prior posts by other members, but it helps solidify everything. TOMEI does the research.

Engine tests were measured in ps (1 ps equivalent to about 1 hp) on a stock ej25 long block.

1. They went with a non-equal length header and increased the merge section piping from 45 mm to 60mm and leaving the rest of the piping same as a stock manifold. Gains were 20-25 from 3500-4800 rpm. Gained about 10 hp top end wise, but only at 5600.

2. Adding a TOMEI ARMS-m7760 (compressor wheel about 28% larger than vf39) gave 25-30 more hp until 7200 (330hp), but peak power was still achieved at 5600-6000 rpm (370 hp). This is on 18.5 psi

3. They tested a variety of cams, but found the best combination to be TOMEI 252 intake and 252 exhaust cams, but found power still fell off around 6000 rpms.

4. They found that the ej207(31 mm) flowed 10% better than the ej255(27mm) on the intake side. They proceeded to modify the ej20 head to fit on the ej25 block. They changed the cams to 250/256 lower lift combination comparable to the previous 252/252 combo on the previous testing.

5. End result of 400 hp on 18.5 psi past 7000 rpm.

From what i gathered from different posts and this article is a better flowing head hold the ej25 back some. I never realized this and wonder if the reasons why people don't see higher numbers is because they go with a larger turbo and supporting mods, but rarely do any head work. IMHO subarus just cost more to tinker with fewer knowledgeable people to work on them. It just costs a lot of money to get the power safely out of a subaru. Tq is where its at anyways

 

These are all really good posts but... has anyone mentioned the fact that the comparisons are being made between the subaru AWD driveline and FW/RW drivelines? I was under the impression that AWD loses around 10% more to the wheels than the FW/RW... if this is the case, then 10 on 500 crank hp is 50hp MORE loss to the wheels than a typical driveline, 50 is pretty huge. from what i've read (and it could be wrong of course) is that the total loss in Subaru AWD is nearly 20% now we're talking about 100whp loss. you pay for the complexity of subaru's AWD system in more ways than one.

I know we can bring up the evo... but i was also under the impression that the evo motor has a lot more tuning time behind it than the USDM wrx/sti engine(s) and that the typical evo owner is a bit less conservative with their build, and again mitsu/honda/vw/etc. have been in the tuning scene a lot longer than subaru.

and at the end of the day hp sells cars/shops, tq wins races.

if any of this is pure bullshit, please let me know, i'm only stating what i've read/been told over the last 3years.

 

Its not the drivetrain loss.

Its the engine. The 4G63 has been around for years and its easy to make power on it. Its virtually unchanged from the late 80's.

The EJ engines have seen alot of changes. The closest thing we had to the EJ20G/K/H is the EJ22T. However, no one cared about it.

Then we got the EJ205 in 2001. EJ205 and EJ22T= different engines all together...but the same at the same time.

Who knew about SUBARU engines and power in 2001? Only those who came from overseas and have read things in magazines...which honestly dont tell much. The DSM crowd was big.

Most WRX owners were 2.5 RS owners when it first came out.

awdlaunch132 has a good point with the 'age' of the engine. We had nothing in terms of parts/support/info for the EJ engines except for stock replacement. No one was interested in performance...no one was doing anything. In the meantime, there were DSM guys doing all kinds of things back in the early 90s.

So when the EVO comes along in 2003 and then the WRX-STi comes out in 2004...the EVO basically already had about 10 years of development already completed in the USA. Its the same basic crank walk *cough* I mean engine platform from the DSMs.

Either way, I'd say we are about 15% along the way to having 'fully' developed an EJ engine for max power/reliability.

 

Drivetrain loss can't be figured as a fixed percentage.

I refuse to belive that Subaru's lose 25% through the drivetrain.

 

I've seen on average a 15~21 percent loss on stock cars. Thats on Mustang and DynoJets.

 

Now I am new to the Subaru seen but I have owned many custom cars including a turbocharged Honda and supercharged Mustang.
It seems that exhaust manifold runner length continues to be brought up as a reason why Subaru's don't respond to turbos like the straight 4 motors. If loosing heat from the drivers side of the manifold is an issue, why aren't people doing twin turbos so they can locate them closer to the exhaust ports?
What is it about the head design that limits power?
I also think it is funny how immune people get to HP numbers. The basic truth is that a 350+whp street car is scary fast and more than enough for most people.

 

350hp enough?

Not for I.

Which is why I'll stick to my 155hp Outback. I'll want 400~500 range and it'll get me in trouble.

 

A stock car is fast enough for most people, but for those of us that have had 500+hp cars it will never be enough. My Mustang should make over 1000whp on the bottle and I'm sure that Ill want more, as a matter of fact I've already made plans for when I do want more.

As far as why Subarus don't make the power they should, there are a lot of reasons.

1. Non-Symmetrical ports on the head.

2. Manifold length

3. Tuners, no many are willing to push the envelope, some rightfully so.

4. Owners (this is the one thats going to make people mad) Most Subaru owners aren't willing to push anywhere near the point of breaking. They aren't willing to risk blowing up a motor in the name of finding out what works. They want a shop or manufacturer to do all the work for them, and then most of them blindly trust the results.

5. Manufacturers, Too many BS shops and manufacturers pushing out BS numbers.

Anyways thats my opinion.

 

Good thread thus far.

Another big factor is cost. 4G63's are a dime a dozen. I could fully build my old 4G63 for 700 hp for 5K. Heh not with the Subie engine though. 4g63's have been around forever and are way more plentiful which is why it's more cheaper.

 

the aftermarket for subies is still really expensive when compared with other models. For a complete short block rebuild with all new bearings, ealge rods, and je pistons (which suck i know) for my talon was around 1300 i can't even find an stock sti block for that. most aftermarket turbos for these cars is minimum 1000 when with 4g63 i bought a brand new 20g for $750 plus the supportings mods are rediculously cheap when compared to subies. There are way more shops that specialize in these other cars which means brings in competetion which equals lower prices and better quality aka more horsepower. Give subie a few years and we will have the gagillion horsepower cars on stock blocks that we all want.

slowwrx makes a good point about the owners not wanting to mod there cars. but the cars that we are comparing to ie honda and 4g63's you can buy a good example of for under 10k. most of us paid probably an average of 20-25k for are cars which means a lot bigger monthly payments. which means we don't want to blow are cars up and have them getting fixed for a month when were making payments and trying to daily drive are cars.

 

I agree with awdlaunch and slowwrx... I have popped 2 Honda Bseries, and I have no interest seeing my 2.0L go anytime soon... the 2.5 is expensive.

I am one of the ones who does not care about the huge HP numbers. VF39 on the 2L is enough power for me for awhile. If I had a 500hp car I would kill myself. I am just enjoying having a powerband that does not start at 6k rpm...

 

I think Matt has brought up the main 3 main items, but does downplay the 4th.

1) Head design on the subaru does seem to be a major issue. There are runners that don't flow as much as others (exhaust runner seems to be an issue, and intake on another cylinder), major doglegs in the head and of course a poor selection of cams. New cams are just now really being developed for the AVCS system. Most of these 30R cars are still running stock cams. Again, the "newness" of this engine in the states. The VE of the suby engine is just not great when compared to a inline 4. I really think with some better head porting and cam options this engine could wake up more!

2) Exhaust path seems to be an issue. The exhaust path to the Subaru is LONG when you compare it to other engines. Think about the big hp hondas you see...turbo is dang near mounted ON the head and exhaust does not have to travel through 3 feet of exhaust manifold to reach the turbo. Again, this being an H 4 instead of an inline makes the exhaust length longer as there is just no real way to mount the turbo in the middle and close to the cylinder exhaust output. Interestingly enough I have seen a 2.0 engine that was built and used in a single person helicopter and they changed the exhaust path to minimize exhaust length and got some great results! Faster spool and more hp. Crazy german guy was the builder!

3) Tuners...well this is beign developed, but still just inexperience with the engine when compared with other engines. When people start pushing the envelope and popping a couple engines, maybe the "limits" will be tested.

4) drivetrain...it is just a simple fact that more rotating mass will mean less hp at the wheels. When you see these big hp hondas and mustangs, they are only having to spin one set of wheels, one differential, one set of axles, etc. Rotating mass has a parasitic loss on hp, period. If you don't believe it, go get a 4 wheel drive vehicle and throw on some manual locking hubs. You will notice a difference in hp and mpg when having to spin the front drivetrain vs when it is unlocked. Is it as large as some people think? I don't have the answer to that, but it would be easy enough to test...take the same car with the same mods and test the hp with awd and then throw on the 2wd conversion and test again and see what the difference makes.

Just my thoughts...I am new to the suby community, coming from Mustangs, old school muscle cars (63 ChevyII SS, etc) and bikes. So this is still something I love to read about and enjoy threads like this that explore and try to figure why. All I have to report is what I have read and weeded through.

 

cost i think plays the major factor. Face it lot of us can't really afford to blow a 2.5 motor or kill the tranny. I could have had a nice K-swaped Ek hatch for the price i paid for my 6spd setup. I wouldn't think twice before taking my GSR to a tuner coz there are dime a dozen, but now i really don't know who to take my WRX to. I agree with some people have said...there aren't lot of dedicated Suby tuners around like there are for Honda. Suby scene is still young, growing, and doing good.
Parts wise i have stopped on my WRX for now and gonna spend some time reasearching to see what parts are gonna take it where i want it be without burnning a big hole in my bank account. There are lots of nice and not expensive mods for subies out that will result in good numbers. Time and research def pays off.

 

I think part of the problem with the Subaru scene is just that^^^, people want to take their Subaru to a Subaru specialist. A good tuner can tune anything. Dan at BG isn't what most people would consider a Subaru tuner yet somehow he always manages to a great job on Subarus.

 

I am not saying any names who's good or who isn't. I am sure Dan does a great job on tunning Subarus. At the same time i wouldn't want a tuner taking any guess on my car. I like to observe first then make my desicion who to take my car to. I won't have any problem taking my car to a tuner who is dedicated to his/her work...doesn't have to be a specialist. If i am impressed i don't have any problem getting some quality work done and happily pay up for it too. If you consider me a problem for being safe then i'll be. Honetsly i don't have extra Subaru motors to experiment on or have pockets deep enough to just dust off a big shop bill. I do what i can do at my best. Everyone can't go your way buddy. Like Will said...if it was soo easy..."everyone one would be running around in a 500hp STi's."

 

I wasn't trying to imply that you should take youre car to Dan, really I was trying to convey that there are other choices besides just Subaru Tuners. Everyone certainly doesn't have to go my way and if you think I can dust off a large shop bill you are sadly mistaken. The only work I have done at the shop is work I can't do myself or don't have time to.

Its easy to get to 500whp, its just expensive.

 

I wasn't focusing on Dan...i was saying...if i see someone who can understand what's goin on with my car well and treat it like their own car...i'll be more than happy to get the work done. I saw all the trouble you went through with your car and setup....great and hard work. I doubt most of us are ready for that kind of dedication yet. Some are just ahead of others and some are following those others footsetps, learing on others experience. True on the bold part.

 

The problems from my car have all been because of how extreme the setup is. Its draining to put that much work into a car just to fire it up run it and take it back a part. The motor is back together I just have to pick it up and put it back in. Hopefully we will be on our way to a 9 second pass.

Matt

 

Ok where to start:

SO basically i think the concensus is that the Subaru market is very new, virgin if you will. Not alot of people know WHAT works and what doesnt.

I see everyone saying that stock turbo manifolds are god for 400whp, has anyone REALLY tested a stock manifold versus a aftermarket on a near stock setup? a mild setup? a medium setup? a crazy setup? I havent seen dynoes anywhere.

AN i want dynoes from someone thats NOT A MAGAZINE, nor a SELLER for the products being tested. Im talking about unbiased 3rd party testing.

I keep hearing the "subaru manifolds are so long" theory, but really, they arent THAT LONG.

Honda TopMount Turbo Manifold


Subaru Manifold


SUpra TUrbo Manifold


Acura RSX


Now obviously the Subaru manifold is longer, but is it really THAT MUCH LONGER that it hinders performance? IMHO no, but again, i have never tested the theory.

What about primary size?

As far as tuners go , your right the honda and mitsubishi market has been around for 10+ years.

There are tons of formulas for those cars that are easy to follow. 600whp is no secret in those models.

I remember 5 years ago if you made 200whp NA in a honda, you were THE MAN. Now, any build thats short of 220whp is considered weak sauce. But alot of advancements were made in the last 5 years. theres better cam selection, better headers for cheaper (much cheaper), more tuning systems available and affordable, etc.

Tuning wise, i think the market is very scarce. I mean lets be completely honest, who tunes subarus in the Atlanta?

Dan, Scott and Doug. Thats it. I dont know of anyone else. and thats only limited to 2 shops.

Who Tunes Hondas or Evos, i can name at least 15 people, including the 3 mentioned above.

The other problem is the price of the subarus. Some one made a good point that Subaru stuff is $$$$. Anyone can build a honda motor in their garage, not so easy with the subarus.

Prices on parts are usually more money, replacement parts are more money. blocks, heads, etc cost alot.

 

Yes its that long, keep in mind that the Subaru manifold you have pictured still doesn't have the upipe on it which is another 12-14 inches.

Thats more heat loss and exhaust gas energy loss. It may not be as big a deal as some people think it is but its not good.

There aren't really any unbiased test out there that I can find and personally I think there is a huge lack of quality products in regards to headers.

Primary size is one of those things that hasn't been exerimented with enough fro anyone to really know the answer. Jeremys car has 2 inch primarys, thats a lot of primary I suspect most people would be fine with a 1 and 5\8ths setup. Another problem is that the merge is really far away from the turbo which isn't good either.

 

your right i forgot about the upipe.