The Saga Continues: Head Stud and Gasket Discussion

Pulled and dissasembled the motor today. Everthing was perfect except for the headgasket. Looks like the center headstuds had loosenedup on both sides, but it only popped one. New head gaskets will arrive tommrow. Then its back together for another try at the big numbers.

Matt

 

Good luck.

And don't forget to re-torque the studs this time :beer:

 

good luck

 

There will be no retorqueing, we will be using a diffrent method for torquing the heads this time. Apparently you should not use the ARP instructions.

 

Didnt I say something about that in another thread?

Yes....

 

they were bustin ass on this car yesterday...cant wait to see it done.

 

Good luck Bro!

 

well ARP has specific re-torquing instructions. Somehow i think someone over there knows what they are talking about. I mean, its ARP people, not APC.

However, on a motor like a subaru, where its impossible to retorque the studs inside the car, i would go with the method that we are going to do today.

Im a honda guy, and we always retorque the honda studs after 800 miles. Same with the Nissans. But they are much easier to get too.

In the future i reccomed engine dynoing the motor , then a retorque before the motor goes in the car, or, the method we are gonna try out today. (ill let you know if that works)

 

best of luck to ya

 

Just for reference how should you torque the ARP studs? On my DSM I had to tq each down in 15-20 increments, loosen them up likewise, tq them down again and let it sit under tension over night. Then the next day loosen them up once more and tq them down in the same increments yet again.

It was a major PITA but I 'NEVER' had a head lift on my DSM much less have a head gasket problem.

 

Stock head bolts FTW.

 

www.learnaboutboltstretch.com

or

www.headlift.com
oem ftl

 

im not sure of the Subaru instructions as we didnt build this motor.

But i know Toyota Supra is the same method you described, the honda/acuras are NOT. you just tq them own in sequence in 3 steps.

 

Dude...seriously.

The *ONLY* time a ARP stud kit has lasted was then the FACTORY tq method was used on the ARP's and a FACTORY headgasket was used.

Cometic MLM HG's are the EXACT same construction as the OEM SUBARU units....meaning you MUST use the factory method or there will be failure. It may last with some other method until it gets off the dyno...or make a few passes, but it will fail prematurely.

SUBARU does NOT recommend replacement of head bolts during an engine overhaul/rebuild/head gasket replacement/etc unless they are damaged in osme way. They are NOT a TQ-to-yeild bolt like other makers, or the previous engine series (EA82, ER27) that SUBARU built.

While I would not hesitate at all to using the ARP's on an EA82....I would never again use them on an EJ engine, no matter what hp/tq level.

Again, the Cometic and ARP combo will NOT last on an EJ engine.

 

Seriously you want to put stock head bolts in a 700hp motor. Thats like putting Contis on a track car.

 

dude seriously

ARP>OEM

 

Yes. I gladly will for One Lap, or any other road course class that requires street tires.

They may work wonders on Honda, Toyota, Mitsu, Daewoo, VW, etc....but NOT on a SUBARU EJ engine.

 

got proof of this?

wheres your metalurgy tests ? have you tested stock bolts versus arps after heat cycling

or is it just what you have heard and barely seen.

just curious, inquiring minds want to know

 

more importantly ,how many over 500whp motors have you built and seen cometic/arp combos fail.

likewise how many over 500whp motors have been built with OEM/OEM and not failed.

im serious, care to share?

 

im not makng fun, im genuinely interested in PERSONAL experience.

 

I want to see some good discussion here about this as this will be very valuable to a LOT of people in the future.

Ron @ Axis uses ARP's FYI. He knows his engine....hell he builds them.

 

Bill MItchell an others must know something we dont

Users of ARP
Austin Coil - Crew Chief for John Force

Troy Trepanier - extreme hot rod and race car builder

Greg Hogue - driver of the quickest diesel truck in IHRA

Michael Tokarchik - General Manager of Manley Performance Products

Greg Anderson - 3-Time NHRA Pro Stock Champion

Spenny Clendenen - Engine Shop General Manager for RCR

Lawrence Macedo - President of Macedo Motorsports

Robert S. Clarke - Vice President & General Manager of Honda Performance Development, Inc.

Nero Deliwala - CEO of Titan Motorsports

John Wallace - VP Sales for HRE Performance Wheels

 

Mike you are naming non-Subaru guys. Will has a point. Lets name some big name Subaru guys. Does Big Valley use ARP's? How about ESX?

 

I do not have any test data at this time. All I know is that of the 80~100 engines I have assembled, approx 10~15 of them have had either ARP stud or ARP studs AND Cometic gaskets. All of them had some sort of failure related to the headgasket in the long run. The longest lasting engine was Dan Lowmans which had stock gaskets with ARP studs with 2 install cycles on them. After about 5k miles, the ARP's lost their TQ and the hedgasket looked like a train ran into the side of it. I reassembled with stock gaskets and bolts and the car went on to make 616hp/5something tq at the wheels and is still running strong to this day.

I have also seen a many cometic and/or arp failures from boxer4racing, and other customers of mine outside of what I have seen at during my time at SOG and Top Speed.

Well, I do not have an exact number on the top one...but I have seen BONE STOCK engines with stock turbos (STi and WRX) reassembled with Cometics and ARPs and they failed within a few months of normal street use.

As for over 500whp cars with OEM/OEM and still running today: Jason Phillips STi that ya'll have there with the Hydra on it made up near 500 or a little over. James Eddy's Ex-sti ran with well over 500 for several months then downgraded to a 3inch/8cm 20G and it still lives today. Dan Lowman's ex-sti with right at 600hp, as mentioned its still alive today. Ron Finger's 05 STi was tuned to just a little over 500. There are atleast 5 or 6 more that I do not recall names, but are all STi's with OEM/OEM gaskets/bolts that were done either at SOG or Top Speed that still live today.

 

i use OEM studs on my STi.

 

Exactly. I am *NOT* saying ARP is crap...I am making a point that they just do not work IN THE LONG RUN on a SUBARU EJxxx engine.

I am FULLY aware of the benefits of ARP's on OTHER engine makes/models. I cant tell you how many sets I've installed on EVO's. I used to do a set almost (if not two or three a day) every day when I worked at Top Speed.

I would very much like to know what Big Valley/ESX use and *IF* those engines would last on the street or over the course of a 24hr road course event.

 

the guy from Axis uses arps

is that big enough

 

Wow, one guy.

Lets all buy axis stuff.

IBrembercrawfordletsalluseCPpistonsthatbobbleheadanduseoilandgetanairoilseparatortobandaidtherealproblem

Lets not forget what happened with Crawford engines.

 

I've got some DEFI gauges and KW's to install...I'll be back. Lets keep it cool and have GOOD technical discussion.

Move to 'Engine Internal' forum?

 

Geeze so much miss information. Ok to give you the cliff notes version, I am running arps in my brighton. I have no head gasket issues what so ever. I did it a bit different though. To start with you put it all together and tq everything to 40ft/lbs. Then grab some heat guns, blow them into the coolant passages and let them sit for about an hour. This brings the temps up in the block and head allowing everything to settle and expand to the correct sizes. Then I tq the heads down again to 75ft/lbs. Once you let the motor cool then turn the head studs again 90 degrees and you won't have to worry about it again. There will be no need later on to re tq them since you allready have them set hot.

 

Did you RETORQUE all of these headstuds after heat cylcing them? if not, then your argument holds ZERO WATER.

you made the same mistake we did, we didnt RETORQUE them PER ARP INSTRUCTIONS.

how can you use a product, not follow its instructions, then bash them.

the only way i will give you any sort of credibility is if you pulled every motor and retorqued them, reinstalled, and THEN they blew

 

While I am in no way doubting your abilities or knowledge...I'd be very interested to see how long it would last under normal street use and/or constant track use before they fail.

 

:thumbup:

 

Oh and I wouldn't run the cometic headgaskets on the suby, I have seen 2 fail. When replaced with the stock subaru part there were no more issues.

 

Thanks Doug.

Current plan is to actually torque the studs into the block, then torque them down in sequence to 85ftlbs, then I may steal youre idea of heating it up some with the head gun then retorqueing.




Will? How many 700+hp motors have you built?

 

We are switching to an OE headgasket. I really wanted to run the new Phuzion gaskets from cometic, they have this super bad ass sealing ring thing....but they don't have them in the size I need.

Matt

 

FYI i have never run cometic gaskets in my personal cars.

705whp 2JZ with an OEM gasket

multiple 600whp+ hondas with OEM gasket

however , our drift cars hold 420whp with cometic gaskets fine and so do many other customers cars.

 

sweet, I had issues in the past with arps backing out. After talking to a big engine builder (nelson racing) we came to the conclusion that

1.) since we couldn't re tq them,

2.) I should heat the block up tq them and then turn 90.

After doing the heat gun thing, I have not had an issue since.

 

Hopefully this will solve our problem.

Thanks

 

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 13 (13 members and 0 guests)
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This is the most active thread on here in a while

 

http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/hrdp_0609_project_f_bomb_engine_build/photo_11.html

 

The question is not 'how many of x have you built' or whatever.

I know many people who have been doing x for years or have done x so many times and they still dont know what they are talking about or what they are really doing. How many times or how many years you've done something doesnt mean JACK unless it actually works and performs. Crawford is a huge example of what NOT to do.

I may not have built an engine that actually makes more than 600 hp, I have built several that make over 500 hp....but that is besides the point.

The point is that the ARP studs have issues with the SUBARU EJ engines that must be worked around/addressed....while the stock head bolts have been PROVEN time and time again on engines that make 500 and 600 hp at the wheels. The fact that I do not have any data on 700hp+ engines does not necessarily mean that they do or do not work...it just means that I just plain do not know.

But if I were building one, I would start with the stock bolts and gaskets...and go from there. However, I am NOT building on, nor am I going to...you guys are (BG) so ya'll can do whatever you want. I am just simply offering up my opinion and experience on what does work and what does not work.


Going back to the re-tq thing...back when did install ARP stud kits (2+years ago), I do not recall any re-tq'ing instructions at all. Just a 'with lube' spec and a 'with out lube' spec...and I always did the EVO's to 'with lube spec' which was 85 ft-lbs and it was done. No issues. However, it has been a long time since I've done one, so I could have forgotten.

 

thats the answer i was looking for, thanks

 

Again, the re-tq line may have been added since then.

I'll dig thru my old shit and see if I can find older instructions.

 

Metallurgy for the Non-Engineer

By Russell Sherman, PE

1. What is grain size and how important is it?

Metals freeze from the liquid state during melting from many origins (called allotropic) and each one of these origins grows until it bumps into another during freezing. Each of these is a grain and in castings, they are fairly large. Grains can be refined (made smaller); therefore, many more of them can occupy the same space, by first cold working and then by recrystallizing at high temperature. Alloy steels, like chrome moly, do not need any cold work; to do this – reheat treatment will refine the grain size. But austenitic steels and aluminum require cold work first. Grain size is very important for mechanical properties. High temperature creep properties are enhanced by large grains but good toughness and fatigue require fine grain size-the finer the better. (High temp creep occurs at elevated temperature and depending on material and load could be as much as .001 per inch/per hour.) All ARP bolts and studs are fine grain – usually ASTM 8 or finer. With 10 being the finest.

2. How do you get toughness vs. brittleness?

With steels, as the strength goes up, the toughness decreases. At too high a strength, the metal tends to be brittle. And threads accentuate the brittleness. A tool steel which can be heat-treated to 350,000 psi, would be a disaster as a bolt because of the threads

 

Ding ding ding we have a winnar! Doug for how long did you blow the heat guns into the coolant passages? Also do you use the copper gasket trick on your head gaskets?

 

About an hour.... really I just run them till the block is really warm to the touch. I guess you could grab a pyrometer if you wanted to get very technical and heat the block to 160+ degrees

 

Further, there is a significant difference between the long and short cylinder head bolts or studs on the same head. The torque angle method can be accurate – but only if each individual installation has been previously calibrated by direct measurement of bolt stretch. When using the torque angle method, it is best to begin rotation from some small measured torque – no more than ten lb./ft. – rather than the first point of contact with the work face. To achieve accuracy it is also best to cycle the fasteners five times before either calibrating or installing.

 

1. YES BOTH ENDS OF THE STUD. I BELIVE THAT IN THE HONDAS NONE OF THE
STUDS GO INTO A WATER JACKET, THEREFOR BOTH ENDS WOULD RECEIVE MOLY
LUBE. IF THE STUD WENT INTO A WATER JACKET THEN IT WOULD NEED SEALANT
ON
THE BLOCK END AND MOLY ON THE FINE THREAD.
2. THE STUDS ARE INSTALLED HAND TIGHT INTO THE BLOCK WITH FULL THREAD
ENGAGEMENT. THERE IS NO PRE-LOAD ON THE STUD ITSELF.
3. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN EXPANSION BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALUMINUM HEAD
AND BLOCK. THE ONLY TIME IT WOULD MATTER IS IF YOU HAVE AN ALUM HEAD
AND
IRON BLOCK.
4 THE FIANL TORQUE WOULD BE 70 FT LBS W/ ARP MOLY LUBE.
5. THE STUDS SHOLUD BE CYCLED 3-5 TIMES BEFORE ENGINE START, THEN A
RETORQUE AFTER A HEAT CYLCE, ALLWAYS TO 70 FT LBS.

ALSO DON'T FORGET TO CHASE THE THREADS IN THE BLOCK BEFORE YOU INSTALL
THE STUDS. THIS IS DONE TO GAIN FULL THREAD ENGAEGMENT.

FYI Subaru are open deck just like Honda blocks and share the same characteristics according to arp.

 

Are those the current and latest instructions form ARP?

If so...they are VASTLY different from over 2 years ago.