I just took my car out to AMP this last Friday for the 3rd time. What a perfect weather day! Since the last time I was out there (last year), I have added the Cobb Intake, RCE sways (front and rear on stiff) and RCE Regular guy springs. The other weekend I was able to join the mountain run and the car was feeling very planted and sharp...this was not the case on the track (yes, I know speed are different). I was having some serious sliding issues all day. The issues were mainly in turn 6 and turn 12 if you are familiar with the track. There was so much sliding in these turns that the traction control was coming on, bogging the car down upon exit. I am still VERY new to this type of driving, so I am not totally comfortable taking traction control off yet. (this is my daily driver and after witnessing a z01 camero totaled on the front straight, I was on the cautious side the rest of the day) When I was at the track last year, I did not have this problem. So, my question is, does anyone have suggestions on how to adjust this? I have already changed the rear sway to the soft setting. Also, both last year and this year, I was on Bridgestone RE760 sports. That might be another option, but I don't have the cash for a deticated track set at this point. I only track it about twice a year. Thanks everyone.
granted I have not taken my car on track yet, but just viewing things from how I hope to take my journey into tracking... Did you have a instructor riding with you, perhaps HPDE style? I just wonder if due to the increase in speed and in still learning mode, that perhaps there could need to be a change in braking point and maybe rolling into the throttle as you exit apex out? or maybe even the line for said corners?
no instructor this time, but was an HPDE (Hooked on Driving) I am thinking that especially in the first problem corner, I was getting my right rear tire off the ground (pictures coming soon), which might be why the system was kicking in. The car felt pretty slippy in some of the other corners (long sweeper) too. Nothing real major, but just a lot more than I felt last time.
ah yeah i think its pretty common for subies to 'tripod' a couple members have seen my car do some serious tire lift on a mountain cruises It could also be that with the suspension mods, everything is soo much stiffer that in essence you are 'over powerering' the tires. Ive learned that all this suspension work is such a complex dark art to get what you want
That's what I am trying to rectify now. Normal street driving and montain runs have been fine and the car was feeling good, but on the track it was a different story.
Are you finding the car understeering or oversteering? Honestly I would turn traction control off, yes its more scary(mentally), but it will make you better in the long run and traction control can cause an issue with loosing car control. IMO I wouldn't want to be mid corner in a long sweeper pushing a car when it suddenly bogs out.
What tires are you running? How much wear on them etc. I had a set of Yokohama's that got super greasy after I put too much heat in them on the track.
Yea, if your tires are different than the last time you were out it may explain a lot of why you are sliding around. And you are awd, turn that traction control off and use the throttle
I guess it felt more like and understeer, but I am thinking more and more that the car was too tight for the tires. They were squeeling pretty much all day. The understeer feeling was due to the "sliding" I think. The TC was not coming on in the sweepers, just two pretty tight turns, where I am pretty sure one of the tires was coming off the ground.
I was running Bridgestone RE760 sports (same as last track session) stock size. I did notice as I was swapping out the track pads over the weekend that there appeared to be extra wear this time (some spots almost looked "melted"). The tires are about 2-3 months old.
Yeah, I saw you had mentioned what tires you were running after I posted. But that might be the culprit. I'm no expert though, just pulling from my small bit of track time knowledge.
Is it possible you have too much tread depth? I know that sounds silly, but if your tread is too tall it can fold over & cause all manner of handling woes when at the cornering limit. Many folks will shave their tires down to 6/32" to avoid this problem. Tirerack says those tires started at 10/32". Not saying this is the culprit, but it might be a contributor. -Chris
That IS a possibility. I did read reviews that these tires got stickier as they wore down. I am pretty sure i had close to that on them last year. I think I am going to losen up the sways and maybe get a more agressive alignment next time and see what that does. Next track day probably won't be until next year.
Really and truly there could be a number of reasons. Essentially, you're beyond the limit of traction in those two corners which is why you're having the sliding issues - now all we have to do is figure out how to get you more traction and in the right spot . I know someone else asked but does it feel like the front of the car was sliding forward and steering input didn't seem to matter or did it feel like the back of the car was trying to slide around toward the front? Do you happen to know your alignment settings? Honestly, those tires SHOULD do fairly well but keep in mind that they are still a street tire and will only go for so long on track.
Sounds like what everyone is saying the tires are giving out and getting greasy. Common problem with heavier cars, you can soften the suspension or check your alignment, but sounds like you are ready to get stickier rubber if all else fails.
It kind of felt like a 4 wheel slide, which also makes me thing it was too tight for the tires. Those two corners I think things were happening becuase only 3 tires were on the ground (still waiting on the pics to come in ) I don't have the alignment settings with me, but I got it done at dealership, so it is probably factory. I have since loosend up the rear sway and yesterday got to take one my fanorite interstate exits (75N onto 285 West) and the car felt to me to have less oversteer than before when it was on the tight setting. The problem with all this is, I'm probably not going to get back to that track until next year. I may bring some tools with me then to at least make sway bar adjustments while there, and possilbly look into a more agressive alignment.
Yeah, I actually priced out the Michelins yesterday and they are not as much more than the Bridgestones as I thought. So, I may just run through these and get those as my next set. I don't have the funds or the need for a deticated track wheel set just yet (only doing about 2 events a year so far)
i think you will be very pleased with the michelin pss's. I know historically on the forums I will sound like a fan boy about them. But they really were that great when I had them. Also for such a sticky summer tire, the wet traction is really unexpectedly good. In my specific case I was moving away from greasy starspecs, and for about 80bux more I got the pss's and they seem to last a lot longer.
+1 on the PSS, they are amazing tires and ride much smoother than the Bridgestones I replaced. The grip in the rain is very impressive for a summer tire. Shoot me a PM if you want a quote for tires. I have a wholesale tire acct and I'd gladly offer them to you at my cost.
I gotcha - the certainly seems to be simply beyond what those tires can do. I would recommend digging those settings up is you still have them just so you can see where your car is currently set so that you determine if you need to go get another alignment before your next track day. Bringing tools and adjusting sway bar settings at the track is a great idea, that way you can play with each setup and immediately see how the car reacts. I would recommend setting the rear bar in the middle and the front bar on hard to start and then see how the car feels from there. The PSSs are so awesome and you will love them... end of story lol!
Thanks for the help! I will try to dig up the setting tonight. The sways (RCE) only have two positions. So, I have already loosened the rear and in corners that I "know" seems to be an improvement.
Alignment as of sept 2nd: LF Camber - -.6 degree Caster - 6.4 deg Toe - 0.01 deg LR Camber - -1.4 deg Toe - 0.02 RF Same RR Camber - -1.6 deg Toe - 0.00
I assume this is your daily driver that you only rarely take to the track. I would go with less rear and more front negative camber.My car is set at -1.00 all the way around and seems to be a good compromise.I do not have any track time but do like to go for some serious curvy mountain roads on occasion.Oh and 0.00 toe setting all the way around.
Awesome, this will help a lot! Here is what I would suggest: Add some more negative camber to the front. This will help with front grip and turn in. The Whiteline COM-C top mounts are a great choice here. Zero out the tow front and rear. I would leave the rear camber alone, personally. You could take some out if you really want to but where it's at now coupled with zero toe really shouldn't eat through tires too badly so long as you rotate your tires. With the above alignment, I would set the sway bars both on soft your first time out and see how the car does. Depending on where you feel it needs more grip, make adjustments from there. Hope that helps!
Try to get more front camber for sure, like mike said soften up the suspension. Also have you been monitoring your tire pressures?
No matter your susp. setup you can always change how the car feels with the tire pressures. If you need more rotation, add air in the rear. Need more grip in the front, take some air out while using the chalk trick I will mention next. A good trick for tire pressures is grab some sidewalk chalk and draw 3 or 4 lines all around the tire's sidewall. By looking at how far down the chalk line is rubbed off. This trick specially works well for the front of the car, but it works for all 4.
Thanks for the additional info guys. Yeah, tire pressure is something I was toying with that day too. Still learning this art as well. I started the day with about 5 psi more than factory specs. I didn't use chalk, but was monitoring the arrow that is already on the sidewall of the tires.
I usually just eyeball it as well, but the chalk makes it just alil easier to get it down to a science. Some of the guys I autox with will actually take surface temp. with a laser to dial in where the sweet spot is for getting the whole contact patch on the ground. Autox is a good place to fine tune the air of the tire pressure.