2013 STI Sedan EJ257 Rebuild Project

UPDATE:

Just left Ball Engines -

Will be doing 0.010" over, honed with torque plate, mahle pistons, skat rods, king bearings and they are going to certify my oil pump and oil cooler for use or tell me to get a new one. They are also going to do the same with the pan.
Neither one of us thought any metal got in the motor since it was just ringlands and they were intact until being removed from the bore, but just to be sure....

I offered him some bartering on some computer equipment since he's in school (laptop, etc) but i'm not expecting much there. At this point I am selling everything I have that isn't on my body or life sustaining....

Sold the boat and the 302 stroker I built in it, hopefully get some cash for that end of next week.

Going to ask a buddy at work that offered his 257k+miles honda CRV to drive so I can take this rental back because andrew said this could take 2wks. That will save me 500$ right there that won't go in Hertz's pocket.

 

I am going to have a LOOOOOT of assembly to do when this is said and done. I have been doing an enormous amount of inventorying and sorting of all the parts in the garage. I have it pretty much laid out now and everything is pretty clean.

I am going to remove the gasket sealer stuff from the valve covers / heads and some other little things while I wait for them to do the bottom end.

So much for trying to slip some tigwerks parts and a turbo into this :|
I'll be lucky if shiveh doesn't snuff me out in my sleep.

 

i was told there would be no math.


but yeah Dana, I know there was a cross reference piston people were using to boost those engines. but if you're gonna do it, do it right and have Ball help.

/threadjack

in the end your engine will be right. usually paying someone to do it right the first time pays off. as long as you realize there is more maintenance/upkeep/$$ to spend on a modified subie than a non-modified one. If you're having to sell everything but body parts just to get it on the road, it's probably not a good thing.....

 

it was bad timing. normally my margins permit incidents like this, and then some.

it was just, bad, timing....

 

How much is the work Ball is doing going to cost? My short block was $2700 shipped, refreshed cases, new 11+ crank, Manley Htuffs, and 100mm CP's with the king XPGs

And I sold the case halves for $300 to make some change back.

Granted I need a crank so that added $300 in parts to my build.

I bought a $40 parts washer to clean everything, granted it spun a bearing to metal was in everywhere.

If you get a gasket kit let me know I think I have pics of where everything goes.

 

Jeeze, $2700 for a short block?! I remember when they were $1200-1500 from subaru

 

they still are depending on year and model

 

Subaru doesn't ship them in this configuration for $1200-1500

 

Make sure and get a killer B oil pickup or some other aftermarket oil pickup that works with the factory pan.

 

Almost forgot about that, thanks eddie.
Also, my pricing was similar to that, but i'm having them provide ARP headstuds and use them when they put the torque plate on.
Skat rods alone are right at 500$, Mahle pistons are also close to that I think.

I had a long talk with shiveh about it, and she agreed with me regarding skimping on stuff. Neither one of us really want to have to pull the motor again in the future regardless of what I do.

I THINK at this point considering my already deep investment that I will keep the heads / cams stock. Andrew thinks I can make really good power with that configuration with the right turbo. He said that I can get more area under the curve with cams and some headwork, but that it isn't too much of a big deal.

 

My short block was not $2700 from Subaru, my whole built short block was $2700 from Outfront.

I only mentioned this to him because before I bought it, I considered buying the parts and having a machine shop bore, gap the rings, clearance the bearings and assemble it which would have cost more than $2700.

Crazyazn I'm not considering having Ball building my motor simply asked to compare their price to buying a Complete short block from a reputable builder. Like buying Topspeeds ss1 but paying much more and still having stock rods.

Jake, new case halves from subaru are around 1100, a stock short block is 1600-1800 lately. Mine was not either one of these, a reconditioned case with a built rotating assembly.

ChrisW, yeah I didn't go through Subaru, I'd never buy a stock replacement block since the pistons have never been improved and are still prone to ring land failure. I think this is why digitizedsould didn't take this route, granted its cheapest, but he wants more power later on and it to still be reliable so he's doing it right the first time.

 

My workspace / setup:

 

Would this be a good fuel pump for my future plans?
http://shop.topspeedtuned.com/tsm-340lph-in-tank-pump/

Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

 

Lol you got that youtube video of that dude building the motor in his driveway on a blanket pulled up. Bookmarked that one too.

Fuel pump looks fine if it fits. With all the headings on the page, it looks pretty generic. The GR fuel pumps are in a crazy plastic basket and pretty limited as to what fits in there.

We did the DW 65c but I know its more spendy.

I will recommend this. you don't need a fuel pump. You have a build ahead of you and break in miles. you can put that off until right before your power tune. October is almost over and Vendors go retarded in November with black friday deals. Save your pennies on all these nickel and dime items and buy them when there is a killer sale or when you can buy them all at once and get a custom quote.

I had to buy new heads, gaskets, an oil pump from the dealer this week. She gave me 18% off since it was a large purchase.

 

That is the one I use. You might want to check output if you are going to go big rotated. For pump gas in the mid 4's it would be fine.

 

nice! yep 500whp would be the extreme, not my goal anymore.
so if it supports your levels I think i'll be fine.

Hmm now injectors......

 

The TSM 980's (I believe that is the number) have a great spray pattern. I probably would have gotten those over my ID1000's but they weren't out at the time. That said...my ID's have been great as well.

 

so what should I get now, a gasket kit? I have the subaru grey adhesive already brand new tube.

intake is still assembled

 

I just bought head gaskets this time. the Gasket kit has a lot of stuff you won't need. All the seals between the block that Ball will already provide when building your motor. A bunch of stuff for the heads you won't need if you are leaving them stock, valve locks seals etc.

Heres a link to the gasket kit I dissected.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=39472481&postcount=67

Look through that and see what you think you'll need. Head gaskets are 75-90 depending on the dealership, gasket kit is 230 at SGP and you probably won't use half of it.

Are you ding TGV deletes or Air pump deletes? They're easy and its a good time to do it.

Turn that head where you can fill the chambers with carb cleaner, that will break up all the carbon and make them look new. Same for the intakes which can usually be rinsed of any oil residue. I soak the exhaust runners and they flake layers of carbon off.

 

i want to do tgv and air pump delete. Already seperated most of the air pump stuff in a bag.
what all will I need to finish it, some kind of block plate or cover where it was? or did it go into the head, i don't remember.
i think matt said he had tgv deletes for me

 

I think KSTech has delete plates pretty cheap. If you are still rockin some tigwerks chub he has his listed on ebay.

remove the pumps and hoses, cover the plugs to prevent shorts, install block off plates and remove the codes with your tune. You have to keep one of the air pump sensors that mounts above the starter as it measures atmospheric pressure.

KSTech also make tgv block off plates. Depending on the year Matt's tgv's are from you may have to notch the inner bolt holes on your intake manifold

 

I am grabbing the tigwerks air pump delete plates and his oil pickup. It's cheaper then a killerB and the welds look amazing as all of his stuff does.

 

Original Post updated with stuff i've obtained, and stuff I still lack.
Matt if you are still reading let me know about those TGV deletes and what year they are for.

 

do you still need an engine stand?

I have one at the house, willing to donate to the cause, under the condition it gets passed around the community. Located in Marietta, let me know if you need

 

I could totally use it, I could take back my unopened one to autozone and get back 80$.
I would come grab obviously, just let me know when. Pretty wiped out today, training was insane earlier and i'm working on removing the TGV's from the intake now.
If you will be around tomorrow afternoon that would be awesome.

 

Check that one off your list

http://wrxinfo.com/service_manuals/

 

:clap::bowdown::wiggle::rofl::bigthumb:

 

I am looking at these pistons, and man they are just completely covered in carbon.
I think an AOS is pretty much mandatory at this point, and the only one with any worthy reputation is the crawford.
I guess I should get the "generic" fit one since I currently have a TMIC, but eventually will have a FMIC. They have about 50 versions of that thing.

 

Pics?

 

would be nice to just drop these guys in...
http://shop.topspeedtuned.com/brian-crower-stage-2-272-camshafts-dual-avcs-subaru-sti-2008-2013/

 

http://imgur.com/a/j8IJw

 

I forgot to ask andrew if he's doing 2618 Mahle's or 4302. I wouldn't imagine he'd be using the 4302's.. better ask though heh.

 

I just read your updated list. I'll give my opinion and experience.

My motor had ringland failure at 16k mi. Wiseco drop ins were installed by the previous owner at a no name shop... they had a lot of blowby. He had uncapped stock injectors, tgv deletes, tbe, GS ewg uppipe, intake and inlet, with a vf39 and sti top mount. I bought it untuned. Had it tuned and it made 311whp and 324 ft/lbs on a mustang dyno. It was a blast, but drove me crazy that it continued to rev but didn't make power to redline.

My friend had the same thing that happened to you. He dropped it off at TSM and then deployed. He had UEL header, 3" TBE, intake and inlet, DW1150cc injectors, walbro 255, a blouch 1.5 and ets tmic on the the SS1 block. That makes 393hp and 397 ft/ lbs on TSM's dyno. Its no slouch.

A build I just finished went all out, built block, heads with valves, springs, kelford c cams, EL header, rotated ETS kit with a 6262 and FMIC, ID 1000's, DW 65c, AP fuel rails, TGV deletes, Speed density with a 4" intake. That car just made 455whp on a mustang dyno.

My point is you can have a short parts list or a long one. Since you are going back with a stock turbo you can skip most of the fuel stuff right now and the rails and regulator all together. You could meet your goals with a stock location setup if you wanted but you sound determined to go rotated. Since that is something you have to save for, I'd skip the piddly unnecessary mods and focus on the block and heads. If ever you think you'll want cams, now is the time. Buy them instead of injectors.

Do the internal stuff. Cams require the motor to be pulled. Any clutch plans? I'd put something that can handle your future power in now so you don't have to have the motor or trans removed again.

You've got the shortblock squared away
Heads too unless you want cams (264 should be fine, anything more and it gets expensive)
Head studs (good)
TGV's and air pump (good)
Clutch (Do it now)
Motor mounts. Pain to do while in the car (do now if you have plans to)
Injectors fine as is, or uncap, or replace (not necessary)
Fuel rails and regulator will support 450whp (not necessary)
Fuel pump if you leave the injectors alone, I'd leave this alone, If not get one that will flow enough for whatever injectors you'll need for later on
If you are going rotated. I wouldn't do anything more, since most parts don't transfer over.

 

Good grief man what a post!!!!!
I owe you big time.

Would the BC stage 2 cams I linked earlier (272/272) be decent?
They allow you to retain the stock valves / springs / retainers.
Or should I just bite the bullet and get the GSC S2 big boys? That will require re-doing everything though springs and the like....

 

I had both the BC Stage 2 and the GSC S2 cams...unfortunately I had a pretty stout set of heads too. I think the BC's are great for the money...dont know if I would use them with stock heads even though a lot of people seems to do it.

 

I bought some gsc s1's for mine... They are what I want. They make power up to 500hp and help low to mid range. After reading about long rod engines and the pistons speeds stock configuration produces, I realized I don't want to rev that high, I want area under the curve. 272's are big and supposedly do not hurt the low end (shift the curve to the right) but don't really do much until the upper revs. I don't spend much time at redline so I went bang for buck where I'll get the most use.

BC's kinda get laughed at only because their 272's are smaller than others 264. This might be ideal if you don't build the heads because they will not be compressing the valve spring as much, just leaving it open longer. Just open a spread sheet and start entering specs of gsc, kelford, BC, and crower's and see the differences. Tomei also offers mild cams.

Head work is pricey. to run high lift or higher rpm you need stiffer springs, stiffer springs can break stock valves since they are 2 piece hollow stems filled with sodium them welded. New valves means a valve job... at minimum probably $900 for springs, valves and a valve job....Then the cams on top. Nasioc has had some used sets of springs lately and head part outs with new or used valves and such for sale.

Forged website has supertech valves for $188 for a complete set of nitrided intakes and inconel exhausts.... I don't know if they'll still sell them for that much as they are usually $140 ish per intake and exhaust set.

Your ports would be fine. These ports flow enough volume. Most port work is done to equalize flow between ports (exhaust straight port vs dogleg) and balance flow between intake and exhaust side so its not taking in more than it can put out or vice versa.

 

The BC cams suck, Get GSCs.

Andrew is likely using a 2618 alloy piston that they co-developed with Mahle. He can get a 4032 piston though if you ask.

 

I wouldn't think he would use 4302's, since they are weaker right? Maybe I have it backwards. He knows my goals, so I should be fine.

Regarding Cams / Valves, I don't want to buy unnecessary things that's for sure, but I don't want to pull the motor again either. Also I know with the stock turbo it's going to fall on it's face up top regardless, but ignoring that for a moment and thinking ahead to a bigger turbo, I don't want my cam profile to be the limiting factor in holding power all the way to redline (regardless of where that redline is at the time)

With those concerns and my intended power level of mid 400's, would the stock cams be fine? You mention stage 1 justin, I haven't even really looked at stage 1's (my own ignorance I guess) but should I for my goals?

All of my knowledge of cams, lift, duration all come from pushrod motors and such which were all naturally aspirated. I am trying to apply that knowledge to a forced induction motor with AVCS so I want to be careful.

 

I forgot to put an AOS on my list.
Looking at my pistons, I think that's a must at this point.
I guess I have no choice but to get the crawford, thing is so expensive though. And i'm going to have to reroute the turbo coolant lines into it.

 

Cams will help. Are the necessary? No. I went with a 30r turbo that will make power to redline, but not much past it at the boost I will be at.

When I was looking at a Long rod motor and 8500-9000 redline I wanted a 35r that continues to flow enough air at high rpms.

If you go 35r size, it will flow enough to whatever redline you are at. The cams will just let more of that in.

My reasoning for cams. I spun a rod bearing. I have had my motor out 5 times, I have had the heads off once (previous owner once). When I got the new short block (4th time) after the bearing I opted for valves and springs so I wouldn't have to pull the heads again... but if the motor cam out a 5th time I could add cams.

The motor is out the 5th time so cams are going in... because I had the valve train to support it. I opted for +1mm valves and blended bowls, so I'm also wanting to maximize that and see what gains I'll make.

Mines an 07 so the AOS is different but I bought a Crawford AOS for a FMIC and ran it with my top mount until now. I modified the bracket and used some 90's to route the hoses where they need to go. Might be an option for you. When I was shopping for one I noticed they usually do the group buy around the new year with 15-20% off. That's another one of those things that can wait. So keep an eye out for a used one.

 

would a lightweight crank pulley be out of the question in atlanta running a/c and stuff? any thoughts on those in general? now would be the time is the only reason i'm asking.

Also what motor mounts do you guys reccomend? I have the SPT ones now, but if they were to be changed now would be the time.

 

Spend your money elsewhere.

But to answer your question, the 4032 pistons will last longer and the 2618 pistons will take more abuse.

Either way you will be lucky to get 50K miles with aftermarket forged pistons.

 

Cams removed, ready to go back on block, just remove a little gasket material.

 

i guess i shouldn't even consider using the same timing belt even though it only had 17k miles.
supposedly gates are problematic so i should get an oem?

 

ummmm tigwerks makes motor mounts.... lol just being a dick

I'd leave the spt ones. I was just suggesting that if you had oem ones and ever had plans to upgrade in the future, now is the time.

I'm 50/50 on the timing belt. If integroid only thinks your pistons will last 50K mi then your current belt would be fine until you had to rebuild the bottom end again.

I hope my motor lasts more than 50K mi, since I don't hotrod it all the time. So I replaced mine.

 

yeah i drive pretty hard, but i would like to think it will last longer then that too.
I can keep this one around as a spare I guess and make a note on it with it's mileage and date.

I am going to go ahead and get a gasket kit because i'm missing a ton of crap that SOG either destroyed on dissasembly, or forgot to give me back. I'm going to give the stuff andrew uses on my bottom end (o-rings for case halves, crank seal, etc) to him when I see him again so he can take that off my bill I guess.

CAN you change cams without removing the engine from the car once it's in? some people claim changing head gaskets without removing it, so i'm wondering, if you can get the heads off, clearly you can change cams as well.

seems like it would be kinda hard to get a proper torque on them with the engine laying flat though