Forged 07 STI debate

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by lobelsteve, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    What is going on here?
    How many times does a thread need to get locked/deleted guys?

    Can we discuss the merits of a fully built block/heads fuel system without name calling and fighting?

    I'd like to hear the viewpoints from Scott, Doug, Batlground, etc on why this is making power/not making power/going to explode/epicfail/etc.

    The debate can come to a close after a year of driving, but the car is still not done until the oil cooler and fuel system is installed. Then an E85 tune and possibly a pump gas retune if needed.

    If the car needs to stop by TopSpeed and Batlground for a dyno pull to make everyone happy- so be it. The trap speed in the 1/4 mile should tell how the car is doing.
  2. Mike@TTR

    Mike@TTR Active Member

    Good luck with the car man, I am sure it will be a blast to drive!
  3. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    It might be best to wait the discussion/debate until we dyno at TS and/or BG and/or make a pass...

  4. Doug@DBW Motorsports

    Doug@DBW Motorsports Active Member

    If everyone can remain cool headed and civil I have no problems letting the car make a few passes on my dyno.
  5. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    Thank you Doug.

  6. Matt

    Matt Think before you post Staff Member Supporting Member

  7. Cool_____

    Cool_____ Banned

    There was a lot of good discussion on that thread albeit off topic that should be cut and pasted into some of the threads WJM has started.
  8. WJM

    WJM Banned

    Lets let it get finished, pull some dynos at the other joints and go to commerce or silver dollar. Then it will be done.

    aka i am in 100% agreement with the others here.
  9. wrxin8or

    wrxin8or Mullitt Staff Member

    That thread will be gone through and possibly parted out into new threads. Happy?
  10. Cool_____

    Cool_____ Banned

    Yup. Smarty pants. :wiggle:
  11. wrxin8or

    wrxin8or Mullitt Staff Member

    Ok stinky pants

  12. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

  13. Matt

    Matt Think before you post Staff Member Supporting Member

    that's because nothing anyone else does will ever make you happy. :)
  14. Cool_____

    Cool_____ Banned

    I should clarify that the good parts are being moved. I'm not happy that the thread was closed.
  15. wrxin8or

    wrxin8or Mullitt Staff Member

    I didn't expect you to be happy
  16. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

    Thats true

    Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate
  17. nicad

    nicad Yes I am a troll

    if you've got hate in yer heart let it out
  18. So did you(Scott) ever get a fuel sys. figured out?
  19. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    Yes. In-tank (just because it's already there, stock would be fine) feeding a 3.0 liter surge tank feeding 2 Bosch 044's. Should be perfect for an adult daily driven STi to make 600+ on E85.

  20. Good, that should get er done!
  21. Ben@TTR

    Ben@TTR Member

    Sweet! despite what people have said, the car is making impressive power for the amount of boost its running with limited fuel. Im looking foward to seeing what it does when it has all the fuel it needs. good job guys
  22. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    I'll tell you this:

    E85 on an AEM sucks for early morning starts. The car is in a garage but it is in the 20's.
    Cranks for 10-12 and almost catches on. After using a portable jumper I switched to a Honda Odyssey and cables to get it started. Thinking about a block heater for the winter, but we'll see if the starts get easier once the new pumps are installed. Of course it won't be that cold next week. Not bitchin', just stating. You do not expect a modified car to run, start, or drive like stock. The triple clutch is super grabby- pedal effort is not bad, but when the pedal is in- it's like fingers on a chalkboard. The flywheel whirs and buzzes with throttle lift, the car jerks violently when boost hits. It can break free tires on dry pavement going into third, like it's jumping a foot to the side.

    I'm beginning to love all of these things...and the smell of E85 is so much more pleasant than Sunoco 110.
  23. JDM-STI

    JDM-STI Member

    Cold starts are about the same on those 20* mornings in my garage. And mine is an AEM on pump gas. ;) Anything above about 40* and she'll fire right up.
  24. sharif@forged

    sharif@forged Member

    We are seeing temps that many of us have never seen. :) I can't wait until we return to the 30's at least.
  25. When I lived in the midwest there were tons of guys running e-85 because it is o readily available up there, however they all decided that it wasn't worth it in the winter so they gave in and began to switch to pump gas for the winter months. On top of the fact that they change the blend of e-85 in the winter up north so it doesn't pay to try to tune on it anyway!

    So yeah...I agree E85 + LT 30 Degrees FTL!
  26. I know I thought I moved SOUTH...evidently not. It was warmer in Toronto then it was here a few nights ago!
  27. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

    Hmm, even the cars I tuned myself crank in 20 degree weather, perhaps you should get someone to look at that.
  28. integroid

    integroid Supporting Member

    Oh Gawd...not again:)
  29. Jake

    Jake Active Member

    where do the people who don't car either way apply?
  30. Cool_____

    Cool_____ Banned

    Why does everyone say E85 is hard to crank in the cold? I've read the same on Naisoc....does the fuel not readily combust when it's cold?

    But an AEM on gasoline should crank regardless of temps......sounds like some cold cranking tweaks need to be done. You can't tune for extreme cold until it actually is extremely cold.
  31. GTscoob

    GTscoob Black is Beautiful

    They should stay out of the discussion. Some people care so much about the details that they must nitpick everything thats posted. Bitching for the sake of bitching. Obviously some people need some excitement in their life so they stir shit up on the internet. This job market needs to turn around so people get off the computer and back to work.
  32. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    To quell the less fortunate:

    Once it was hooked up to jumper cables on a running Honda Odyssey, the motor turned over much faster and started after 2 minutes. Now 2 minutes is completely unacceptable for a factory car. But given the circumstances, it makes me think an Optima battery with higher CCA may make this problem be much less than it should be.
  33. Doug@DBW Motorsports

    Doug@DBW Motorsports Active Member

    Just sounds like Scott needs to take the car home one night and mess with the cold start early in the morning, shouldn't be a big deal. There are so many tables that need to be adjusted for extreme cold start for E85 and you only have about a 5 min window early in the morning when the car is still cold.

    It can be fixed though.
  34. Totally agree, I guess someone forgot there are cold start tables.
  35. I honestly didn't know this! Living up north I was always told it was fuel related. huh...learn something new every day.

    Side Note: Winter blend E85 IS different tho, and has to be retuned on. I have a good friend that works in the e85 refinery in ND, they change it in November every year up there. No clue if or when they do it in the south :)
  36. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    I worked extensively on the cold start tables. But like Doug said above, you only get a few minutes of trying things and then the coolant temp is up enough to start easily.

    I took it home twice. The first morning it was 16 degrees when I got in the car. The ambient sensor in the dash and the AEM for coolant basically agreed.

    While playing with the cold start, and what actually ended up working was the cam/crank sens high/low rpm, within five or six minutes the coolant temp indicated 24 or 25 degrees and it cranked right up.

    That afternoon I went to play again, but the coolant was 25 and cranked on this first fire, died, and then cranked and stayed running on the second. I thought that was acceptable.

    The next morning it was 18 degrees. Within 5 or 6 attempted starts it was 21 and fired easily... Clearly I need to play a little more...

    JDM-STi, I think I only had your car in the summer, so yes, if I could get my hands on it some now I'm sure it could be improved on.

  37. tolnep

    tolnep Member

    my understanding is up north winter e85 is around 70 percent ethanol. I suspect that in GA E85 remains 85 percent. Thats what i have heard. Anyway i found the test instructions below. There are versions of this and there are kits you can buy too. Since i've been running my car on e85 for the last couple of months, i've been planning on buying a 100ml graduated cylinder to do this test.

    my car starts up great when its cold. though it stays in the garage most of the time. last week i let it sit outside when it was between 15 and 20 degrees at night just to see if it would start, which it did. the only time it has a very slight issue is when its 'luke warm'. that is, its been driven in the last couple of hours, its allowed to sit outside, and its very cold.

    ignore the comments about too much alcohol in the comments below. my car likes this stuff so much its hard to see how there could be 'too much', though i've heard 100 percent ethanol does cause problems.

    Step 1
    Collect a fuel sample from your car's fuel supply. I use a clean 1 liter pop bottle that is clean and dry (so you contaminate your sample).

    Step 2
    Pour 90 ml of your fuel sample into the 100 ml graduated cylinder. Add 10 ml of water to the cylinder and cover the top with your finger and shake.

    Step 3
    Let the fuel sample set for 10 to 15 minutes. The alcohol will combine with the water and separate from the fuel. Read the line where it separates.Now comes the calculation, with 100 ml = 100% Looking at the cylinder, the way we would read this is: The line is on the 53 and we know 10% was water to begin with. The water will settle to the bottom because water is heavier than gasoline. 53-10=43 This sample would be 43% alcohol, which would be way to much for a 10% blend and most cars would run very poorly if they started at all.
  38. Cool_____

    Cool_____ Banned

    Mike Sargent has noticed variations of winter E85 vs summer E85 and said he had to change tune for it.
  39. Mike@TTR

    Mike@TTR Active Member

    It will get harder to crank in the winter. That is just a fact of E85. Some things I have noticed...a lot of the suppliers here will wait till they are almost out of Summer blend before getting their tanks refilled. If they still have E85 in the tank when a cold snap hits, chances are it is going to stay E85 and not go to the winter E70. Other thing. I had one that did not switch until mid January to E70. I just made my own blend by adding a couple gallons of gas in and doing a little math. Mine would always start within 6-7 cranks first or second try.

    Part of it could be cold start tables, but if it is still E85 and not E70 (pretty good chance it is E85) then it is just plain going to be hard to start. This is due to the chemical and physical properties of ethanol. There is a REASON why they switch to E70 in the winter months.

    I only saw two blends here in Georgia. E85 and E70. Many of the northern states will see 3 blends. E85, E80ish and E70. Here is was just E70 and E85 and there does not seem to be a rhyme or reason to when they switch other than their tank is getting low. I would guess a higher volume store will switch before a low volume store.

    But this is one of the reasons I HIGHLY advise getting a wideband gauge if you want to run E85. If you are running winter blend on a winter blend tune and it switches, you will go lean.
  40. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    Startup over 40 degrees is uneventful.

    The car at current tune is faster than prior 110octane tune. It will be a rocket when an additional 4 lbs of boost is available.

    I made a nurse tinkle on the way back from lunch today. Warmed up the motor and took off in 2nd. At 4400rpm- things get blurry.
  41. Mike@TTR

    Mike@TTR Active Member

    Glad to hear it is going well. My bet is it was just too cold for the blend that is in the tank. If it gets bad, you can always add a gallon or two of 93. That usually is enough to wake it up from a summer blend on extra cold days.
  42. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    E85 shot up to 2.49 in Roswell. But 93 was 3.09 at the same station.
    Forged guys tell me the oil cooler and fuel system is almost done. The tank was custom made and there is over a $100 in just the fittings. Some folks pimp out their trunks with fancy amp and sub displays. I'll be poppin' the lid to show off a swirl pot and some 0440's.

    LED or neon lights would complete my cars only bling (hidden in the trunk).

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 24, 2010
  43. integroid

    integroid Supporting Member

    I spent $70 on 5 AN fittings and 3-ft of hose yeaterday. What a complete rip off!
  44. Mike@TTR

    Mike@TTR Active Member

    And some of them are even more than that. There are some of the fittings that are $40 a piece!
  45. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    Funny enough I already made a blog post about idle, startup, and drivability tuning a few days ago.

    E85 will start up fine at cold temps as long as you get the tables correct. A block heater will help but is not necessary. The swirl pot and 2 pumps is a very cool thing that we have been doing on drift cars for a while but is not entirely necessary unless you are doing very very high G turns for long periods of time or if you are drifting on a banked track.

    Here is the link to the blog post about tuning startup, idle and drivability.
  46. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    Great post above (follow the link).

    Hey Batlground: I'm the guy that was at the birthday party a few months back- with the inflatable jumping thingy. Harmony on the Lakes.

    The car goes in this weekend for fuel system and oil cooler. Scott will take it home 1-2 nights to get the cold start tuning done.

    When it's all done, I can bring the car around for Dyno to Dyno comparisons. We should hit the track in February up in Commerce to see what it can run.
  47. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    E85 startup at 25 degrees was no problem, 17 degrees was another story...

  48. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    Picking up car today. I'll drive it for a week or two and then the next little bits go in.
    Need to replace the stock battery and I'll try a grounding kit. Tune is almost completed- I just keep adding in little pieces to eek out more from Scott and the Dyno. Still planning on getting to the strip in March and dropping by the other shops for dyno pulls.

    If the GT35 from UR kit doesn't do it all for me- maybe we'll get more exotic on the turbo for a re-tune in April.
  49. integroid

    integroid Supporting Member

    You should look into the HTA turbos from FP or wait until Garrett releases the GTXR turbos in the smaller frames. If I switch Turbos, it will be with the GTXR.
  50. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve Member

    That HTA3582 looks sexy. Wonder if the gains are that noticeable to anyone more than the tuners. Would I feel it? Or would i just know it was there? I'm doing the grounding kit- and I'm pretty sure that is more for safety (in the tune) than rocking performance.

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