Shop/Tuner Screwed up....

Discussion in 'General Community' started by UpSideDownDesi, Jan 5, 2008.

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  1. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

    So you talked to the tuner and then disputed the credit card....but you didn't talk to the shop owner.

    I wouldn't help you either at that point, right now you have not paid for anything and that is theft of services.

    I understand you had problems with your car but you are handling this the wrong way.
     
  2. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    So you called the tuner on his cell phone and then disputed the charge without ever contacting the shop? There is a difference between "the shop" screwing you over and one of their "employees" screwing you over outside of the shop. You have to go through the correct outlets to rectify situations :)

    Then you went on 2 forums and spread the word from there. That's not fair to the shop ;) Let's use the McDonald's comparison again:

    You go to McD's and order a quarter pounder with cheese. You get it home and it doesn't have cheese on it. You somehow have the employee of McD's cell phone number and you call it to complain. He says he will be happy to give you cheese if you pay for it. Instead of calling McD's and speaking with the manager, you call your CC company and ask for your money back then tell all of your friends how McD's screwed you out of your cheese...all the while you never even called McD's to see if they had a better answer for you. 2 months later McD's finds out about the situation and the employee is no longer employed there. What do you want McD's to do now? Fire the employee that no longer works there????

    It seems to me that there was a communication issue not initiated by McD's.

    *This is reason #1-100 that I get so bent out of shape when employees talk on their cell phones to customers at our shop. I'm glad my point has been proved :D

    ~Tracy
     
  3. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

    Are we all clear on who we are talking about now....lol
     
  4. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    Even if that is clear I think this should be a lesson to a few regardless of who we are talking about.

    #1 If you have an issue with a business, go through the proper outlets to get it handled. Cell phones and CC companies should not be your first recourse!
    #2 There is always more to the story that your friend is telling you..so take it with a grain of salt. Reputations are on the line. Reputations are some people's livelihood.
    #3 Don't talk on your cell phone to customers. There is a business line and a proper order in which things are handled for a reason! DAMMIT!


    :)

    ~Tracy
     
  5. BKiller

    BKiller Active Member

    Maybe we should round up a posse?
     
  6. Alex

    Alex Community Founder Staff Member

    That's a much better McD's example :)
     
  7. Deke

    Deke Active Member

    Not if he paid for cheese. :)

    A quick edit on the McDonald's metaphor: He paid for cheese then gets home and finds out he doesn't have it. He calls the employee and he says you can have the cheese (even though he already paid for it) for an additional cost. He then calls the credit card company. He still should have talked to the manager (shop owner) before the credit card company though.
     
  8. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    The point isn't whether or not he paid for cheese. It's the outlet he chose to complain about it ;).
     
  9. WJM

    WJM Banned

    this has become comical now.
     
  10. nsvwrx

    nsvwrx Active Member

    true, but your MCd was just not right.. if he paid for cheese, he gets cheese.. but he didnt go though the right outlet for sure.
     
  11. goixiz

    goixiz Active Member

    Im hope when you go back to get the missing cheese it will be cheese ONLY and not cheese and additional "stuff" :)
     
  12. Deke

    Deke Active Member

    Lol at this thread.
     
  13. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    Did anyone say he doesn't get cheese?

    I'm not up on what all happened with his "tune" or his "mechanical failures". So far all that I know is that he called a cell phone instead of a business line and then proceeded to say a "shop" screwed him over. Which in reality what happened is a shop employee screwed him over via cell phone and the shop just found out about the issue via chat forums 2 months later and long after said employee left the shop ;)
     
  14. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

    Shame on you for not checking all the forums for shop problems....
     
  15. STiBottom

    STiBottom Member

    I'm confused who is the cheese and who is screwing cheese. Cause that is just wrong
     
  16. AirMax95

    AirMax95 Active Member

    McD's is bad for your health, with or without cheese! It will kill you!!!!
     
  17. mmtasty

    mmtasty Active Member

    I'm just skimming these posts because there are just too many words...

    So, you got your car tuned and during lunch they took you to McDonalds and didn't get cheese??? And now you're mad at the shop manager? He was nice enough to take you to lunch in the first place. Besides, it's just cheese. Wait... Hmmm... cheese is good... I think I know why you're so pissed. Actually, the more I think about it the more I get mad too. Damn it! That's just not fair! No cheese?! What type of shop are they running?! If I didn't want cheese I would have just got an AP and used the OTS maps! I bet that bastard tuner had extra cheese! Probably was wearing a suit made of cheese... I bet it was cheddar too... no, mozzarella string style! And at the end of the day rather than taking off the suit, he just peels off strings and eats it! That's a good idea. They should make string cheese gum. Now that's a good idea.
     
  18. WJM

    WJM Banned

    Buy an STi and be done with it.
     
  19. KA05STi

    KA05STi Member

    lol @ mmtasty
     
  20. WJM

    WJM Banned

    Seriously.
     
  21. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

    Has everyone learned their lesson.


    Don't use your cell phone while at the drive through at Mcdonalds
     
  22. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    So 3 months ago Upsidedowndesi brought the car to me for tuning at Batlground. The car had multiple mechanical issues. There appeared to be serious electronic (mechanical) issues.

    Shortly into the tuning the car shut off and refused to restart. (this prevented any further tuning until fixing the problem)

    Diagnosing the "unable to start issue" required creating an opensource map to run the car without the UTEC (this was tuning)

    Once the mechanical issue (that had left the customer stranded on the side of the road on multiple occasions) was FIXED we commenced tuning.

    The car still had issues and Upsidedowndesi and I agreed that he needed to change engine management. The car was tuned as safely as seemed possible with continued underlying issues.

    After WELL over 4 hours of working on the car, and quite late in the evening (our appointment time having been stretched by the unscheduled mechanical issues = car not ready for tuning) we agreed he would change engine management and retune. Despite well over 4 hours ON THE DYNO, he was charged 2 hours of tuning and 1 hour of labor.

    I believe that I was quite generous and he received more work than he paid for.

    The next day, he PM'd me that he thought I should get his car perfect with the UTEC for FREE, or give him his money back. I still felt that he had received more work than he paid for and did not feel I owed him free work or a refund. His car would no longer leave him stranded and was safe through 4th gear (as I told him). I thought we had been in agreement to change engine management.

    I will attach the PM's we exchanged if necessary.

    Siegel
     
  23. slowwrx

    slowwrx Supporting Member

    Ladies and Gentlemen....I present to you what actually happened.

    LOL
     
  24. BKiller

    BKiller Active Member

    Wait? This cheese is 3 months old? By the OP I thought this just happened last week.
    This is more confusing then the first time I saw Pulp Fiction...
     
  25. wrxin8or

    wrxin8or Mullitt Staff Member

    Scott, thanks for inputing your side of the story to this issue.


    I guess you can't always believe what you read on the internet...
     
  26. nsvwrx

    nsvwrx Active Member

    I retract everything i said. Supporting SS.
     
  27. BrianGT

    BrianGT Banned

    indeed..

    btw, Scott pasted the PM history on IA.
     
  28. I just got in trouble for too much laughter after reading this and the digital tv thread.I have to leave this website until my wife goes to bed..
     
  29. Eco Auto Clean

    Eco Auto Clean Active Member

    Thank you kind sir... I love when I actually LOL..oops sorry..continue on folks..
     
  30. Deke

    Deke Active Member

    I know open source isn't quite as thorough as Ecutek/AP (or at least what I hear), but I'm surprised since you were using an opensource map at one point anyways, that you didn't just scrap the utec and stick with it. I'm pretty ignorant to the ways of tuning, but I'm just curious why you didn't go that route.
     
  31. UpSideDownDesi

    UpSideDownDesi Active Member

    Scott please don't say things that are not true. Car didn't have "multiple serious issues" hence you should have told me about them if they were so serious. Only serious one that came up was the "car shutting off" and it came up after 2 pulls and took 1 hr to fix after that car was back to normal. U didn't not tell me of any other mechanical issues that kept you from tunning my car (which you should have if they were serious like you said). BTW i made you inform about the "car shutting off randomly issue" as soon you put the car on dyno and you said, "we'll check it out if it comes up." You knew about it to when Will was trying to figure it out. So it didn't come outta the blue.

    You never did a 5th gear+ pull on the car. Maybe you are thinking you took my car on the street, but u didn't. You said it yourself, "i take the cars i tune on the street after the tune, but i can't take yours out because it's dark outside." It puzzled me for a sec, but i let that one by. May be u didn't take it out because you were getting late? You said upgrade to Access Port because it's a better EM and i said, yes i will in future. No where you said that UTEC was keeping you from tunning the car or else i would have stopped right then and there instead you kept on trying and that costed me money.

    The "opensource map" was you simply running the car on stock ECU to see if it was UTEC that was causing shutting off problem, but it wasn't.

    **Scott you NEVER told me that the car wasn't 4th+ gear safe (however way you found out that it wasn't)? I would have never taken that car home that night knowing the unsafe condition it was in (i am sure ppl who know me, know how i am when it comes to my cars and caring about them...especially when good bit invested in it and i worked very had for every penny in the car). So knowingly you let me go with the car that u knew wasn't safe for the street without informing me about it? You just agreed on that you gave me a unsafe car and charged me for it.

    Can you please state the other "serious electronic mechanical issues".....other than shutting off and everyone's fav UTEC lol

    You didn't not put 4hrs tunning that car.....you put in 2 hours and i agree with that. I came in 3:15....i sat down for few mins....you took the keys...3:50 car was on the dyno...you took ur lunch break.....4:20 you came out....new intake and filter was installed. First pull was at 4:30 and car came off the dyno at 8:30...tunning stopped at 8:00. That's 3 hrs 30 mins on dyno....1 hour to fix the mechanical issue.....2 hours 30 mins on dyno then you spent good 30-45mins helping the other guy on a Blue STi....taking the motor out then discussing how this is the owners 4th motor, why some built blocks are worthelss, few things about the parts laying around, etc etc (I don't see how helping someone else on a different car is tunning my car). Then 15-20min talking outside talking to the guys when they where stripping down BG drift car.....if i break it down that is less that 2 hours of dyno tune time.

    You are basically saying you spent all the time to fix my shutting off problem? That would be 3hrX$80. Can you also state what progress or what were you able to achieve tunning my car. How did u make it safer? Here's the dyno chart. 1st untuned pull looks exact same as last pull (last pull...i have no clue what as going on on that one), only with car loosing power and AFR still off the chart and what i saw was 9:1.

    [​IMG]



    Very funny with jokes..i like cheese, but i don't like Hamburger.......i don't eat hamburgers so tank you come again lol.

    Tracy didn't mean to bash on BG.....Mike shed some light on me. Y'all have been very helpful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  32. WJM

    WJM Banned

    Are you kidding?

    EcuFlash is freaking awesome(I personally dislike enginuity alot, but the logger is ok). It has more variables available over the AP/Ecutek. That means more stuff available for the tuner to tune the car correctly (or further fuck it up).

    The issues comes down to customer support.

    With Ecutek/AP...you have a COMPANY standing behind their product. If something goes wrong, they were there to help and the problem WILL be solved.

    With the opensource stuff...if something goes wrong, you gotta wait who knows how long for someone on a forum to come up with an idea...until then...good luck, you are SOL.

    However, problems usually only arise when you get a n00b who doesnt know what they are doing.

    Open source is the best, and by far the worst, thing to happen to the SUBARU community.

    Best because it offers the same and more over Ecutek and AP.
    Worst because it is severely affecting Ecutek and AP sales and jobs...it is also putting shops in the difficult place...the shops that tune Ecutek and AP are somewhat limited from tuning the opensource. Why? the opensource seems to be directly taken from Ecutek technology. This is still highly debated.


    Either way, I've 'tuned' (but I am by no means a tuner) a few cars with EcuFlash. Its very easy to work with, once one understands the COMPLETE relationship of how the SUBARU internal combustion engine works along with the relationship of the SUBARU fuel management system.

    I still recommend people be tuned by the professionals at Top Speed, as my tunes, in no way shape or form, are meant for long term use. They are meant only as a safe limp map to get them to Top Speed.
     
  33. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    I've tuned that car since it was a pile of parts in boxes in the back seats. The previous owner was advised to change EM. He didn't want to because he was just getting it running to sell.

    When you bought the car you were advised to change EM. I thought you had agreed. That particular car, with the hybrid motor and some continuous issues (since the car was assembled), needs more EM than UTEC (the fighting between ecu and piggyback makes diagnosis virtually impossible).

    There is a reason that it can't safely be leaned out... again, I thought we were in agreement to start by changing EM.

    When you left, you asked if it was safe to beat on (as you posted above). My response of "should be" came with the qualifier of "through 4th gear"

    I'm sorry to appear harsh, but it really all comes down to this:

    we have agreed that you got at least as much work done as you paid for, therefore you are not entitled to a refund or additional work for free

    Originally Posted by UpSideDownDesi
    how's it goin Scott,
    Remember i talked to you about getting the car tweaked and tuned with a new intake pipe and filter, plus see what's going on with my UTEC. When can i come it...i am free next week afternoon time after 2:30. Sucks all these upgrade and running almost stock. How much was the tweak with the new intake?
    P.S no the car didn't get sold lol.

    replied by Siegel
    I thought that you were going to get some "real" engine management... I actually thought you were selling it. Anyway, what turbo is on it? What do you want to do for EM? Next week is already over-booked. We are booking into the following week. We are at Nopi right now (I'm replying curteousy of one of our members - O2 Secure Wireless). Mike will be back at BG next Tuesday. Give him a call and he can book you an appointment.

    Siegel
    ________
     
  34. JDM-STI

    JDM-STI Member

    I have known Scott basically since he started tuning at SOG. I can can easily say this, HE HAS NEVER LIED TO ME OR TOLD ME WHAT I WANTED TO HEAR. There has been countless times that I had my car tuned and issues have risen. Hint, hint, open/close loop transition, hint hint. There have been several times that I have had to take the car home in an unsafe state, but NEVER was I not completely warned about it. Scott has always been up front and honest with me no matter what the situation. I think this is sort of a case of selective hearing. Because knowing Scott and the pride that he takes in his work, I seriously doubt that he would send a customer off with an unsafe tune and without warning. And there's hundreds of customers that will tell you that. If he did, I personally would be disappointed. But I know better.
     
  35. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    Glad this is being hashed out. Good luck with everything guys. Like I already said, be careful what you say and who you say it to. People's livelihood may depend on your hasty statements. Make sure you have exhausted all proper outlets before you cancel CC payments :)

    Also, people who read on the Internet or hear about an encounter your friend may have ha...take it with a grain of salt ;) there are usually 3 sides to every story.

    ~Tracy
     
  36. Deke

    Deke Active Member

    Jesus H Christ. Well now I know.
     
  37. WJM

    WJM Banned

    There ya go.

    My final statement for this situation:

    I am friends with the two immediate parties involved.

    Both SS and I told USDD to remove the UTEC and use a 'real' EM solution, even opensource was mentioned. However, USDD still chooses to operate the vehicle with the UTEC. Even selling the UTEC would have recouped at least 1/2 of the cost of an AP or EcuTek License.

    I was there since day 1 of USDD's car before he even realized it's existence. Both SS and I UN-recommended the UTEC to the original customer. All he wanted was to get it running good enough to sell it, so it did not matter the long term effects of the EMS.

    Since USDD purchased the car and wanted tuning, again we both recommended uninstalling the UTEC and going with something else. Again, USDD chooses to use the UTEC.

    While the vehicle has small mechanical and electrical issues that showed up later, that I fixed most of them free of charge, the vehicle still has problems relating to the UTEC and stock ECU fighting each other. Again, recommended dumping the UTEC. USDD chooses to keep the UTEC.


    Had USDD dumped the UTEC, we would not be reading this thread right now.
     
  38. UpSideDownDesi

    UpSideDownDesi Active Member

    Scott never did you mention to me that you won't be safely able to tune my car. Never did you say UTEC was holding you back. "When are you going to get real engine management", says nothing. Also you failed to tell me that the car wasn't 4th+ gear safe. There was no "qualifier." Haha why would i take a car home that is only good till 4th gear when i have 2 more gears left??? Car came in running good in all gears and left running good only up to 4th gear? If there was a problem with the car i would have told you when I initially contacted you. I paid for a full tune not tune upto 4th gear, if you were not able to tune my car should have let me known right that moment so we could have stopped. I don't make BS up and only stand behind when i know i got done wrong.....anyone is welcomed to prove me wrong on that. Scott knowing the person you are, last thing i would expect from you is making things up and lying/being unprofessional to cover yourself......which i saw here. I respected you even after the tune, but i don't any more. I am sorry to say, but you straight up ripped me off and did a bad tune...then didn't take any responsibility. Why do u think i came to you when i needed the car to get tweaked, when other told me go diff places? I should have listened.
     
  39. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    This is nor specifically to defend Scott or what happened as I have no idea what happened since I just found out about this and haven't spoken to Scott about it. This is just a testament to my experiences on one thing I read in this post.

    All tuning is done by the hour at our shop and most. So you didn't pay for a "full tune", you paid for the time your car spent on the dyno. It happens every day that a customer calls and doesn't disclose all of the things going on with their car. A lot of customers think that dyno tuning will fix all of their problems. That' not to say that's what you did, that's just to state experiences that most shops have with customers. To state that you would have told him if their was problems with your car before you came in doesn't say much to us. 90% of the time when a car comes to us, it has preexisting problems. It is usually safe for us to assume that this is the case when a car comes in. We are usually pleasantly surprised if there are no existing problems that we have to fix. That being said, most shops work by the hour, not by the project just for this reason.

    Like I already said, my statements aren't taking up for anyone in this specific instance. Just making an observation and trying to educate people on how things work at a shop. All work is done by the hour unless it is otherwise stated...at least at our shop and it is even mentioned on our work orders every customer signs before we work on their car.
     
  40. UpSideDownDesi

    UpSideDownDesi Active Member

    I am not saying no to anything you said Will. Yes you told me plenty of times to get a better Engine Management and i would be happy with AP or better. But never once anyone brought up UTEC is the one causing big problems.... u know how i am about that car....you saw how i was every time something did show up....and i didn't ignore it either. If someone would have said.....UTEC will kill the car....it would have gone on day one....no questions asked. I was told to upgrade to a better Engine Management when i can, not immediately, and i agreed......"I will."

    Thanks for clearing the part on issues that were all small mechanical and electrical that you fixed. And these were fixed before the car went in for tune.
     
  41. UpSideDownDesi

    UpSideDownDesi Active Member

    Totally agree, but why did one failed to inform me about car only being safe only till certain gear? When i asked, "is the car safe to push?" I didn't ask till certain gear, i asked was overall and i got a not so sure "should be.".......no he did not say only till 4th gear because "safe to push" came with on track and hwy. My car did have a preexisting problem, which i told scott about it before hand. After working on the problem he was able to fix it, and it did not come in his way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  42. Batlground

    Batlground Active Member

    I agree with lots of what you are saying if it's true (and I say if only because I don't know the whole story).

    Like I said, I don't know this situation in its entirety. Communication is huge deal and I am not belittling that one bit. I'm just picking out points that may help some folks out in the future. The last point is that work is done by the hour, not the job (based on this statement "I paid for a full tune not tune up to 4th gear")...which is totally different from the communication issue.
     
  43. WJM

    WJM Banned

    I thought all of us had made it clear that you needed to do it ASAP and NOT to depend on it as a long term solution.

    There was one glitch that I never had time to finish diagnosing: the intermittent complete and total engine fuel cut it would have from time to time.
     
  44. UpSideDownDesi

    UpSideDownDesi Active Member

    Not gonna force any to believe me or not, but i am gonna stand by what i am saying and what i have to say. Yes, dyno tunning is by the hours not by project or unless a set amount set by tuner before hand. By saying, "I paid for a full tune not tune up to 4th grea." I was trying to state the information was held from me and what i was notified of the tune was that the is car tuned and good to go.....not that car needs more work.
    BG has been very helpful and professional handling/communicating on the situation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  45. UpSideDownDesi

    UpSideDownDesi Active Member

    Man u know if that car needed something asap it got it asap. I agreed on getting it soon.

    Yes that is the only glitch the car went in with and Scott was notified of it before hand.

    Scott I still would like to hear other "serious electrical/mechanical issues". Lot of my questions are still unanswered.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  46. siegelracing

    siegelracing Registered Vendor<br><b><font color="#666666">bion

    USDD and all - as this was 3 months and a bunch of cars ago, I don't remember every detail. Looking through the PM's shows that we spoke of a known boost control issue. You have been told all along that there were issues with the car that required changing EM to get right. The previous owner didn't want to spend the money because he was just selling it. The first time you and I met, you didn't want to put the money in because you were planning on selling it. Every time you have asked someone who knows the car you have gotten the same answer, and refused to listen to it.

    There is a REASON that the car is so rich, and there is/was not an efficient way to diagnose it with the UTEC installed.

    I'd have been happy to continue working on it with you, but as I have said all along, nothing was owed to you, so it can't have been free...

    I thought we were in agreement that it wasn't worth continuing to put time and money into the UTEC.

    It really comes down to this:

    You have a problem car. We worked on your problems. You paid for the work that was done. Then you decided that you should either get more work for free, or get your money back. Neither is an option.

    I'm not sure what your plan for all this is. You haven't contacted me in 3 months, then you decide to do it publicly. You state in a public forum that you have a lousy tune. You ask "the world in general" what it will cost to fix an unknown problem...

    Tuning is not magic. The only thing that is remotely "magical" is the experiences a tuner has that give him an idea where to go to fix a problem, and when to stop trying to tune out a mechanical issue. Once there are no problems the rest is just calibration - tweaking the input to get the right output. The map that you came in with had more fuel in it than the map you left with.

    When we started dynoing we noticed that it was incredibly rich, we took a TON of fuel out of it. Then the "magic of experience" kicked in and said, there's a problem - it won't lean out with reasonable values in the map.

    You had repeatedly stated a desire to limit your spending on the car. In an effort to save you money, we ended the tuning with a less than perfect result AND THE STATEMENT THAT YOU WOULD BE CHANGING EM AND DOING MORE TUNING.

    I have spent an excessive amount of time dealing with this situation. You got work done. You paid for the work done. More work takes more money. The work done was not "bad." The car was rich, then died. It required tuning (making the opensource map) to diagnose and fix the mechanical. The mechanical work was done and further tuning commenced. We were still rich and continued taking fuel out until my experiences said, "there is a problem."

    You knew full well that there was a problem with it being rich AND AGREED TO CHANGE EM. Then you asked for money back or more work for free...

    I have spent enough time on this. I do my absolute best to give 100% customer satisfaction. Most people know that I go WAY above and beyond, often being excessively generous with my time, and giving advice that saves my customers money (often reducing what I make). The time that I have spent on this has taken time from other customers and my family. I would like this to be my last post on this.

    Siegel
     
  47. nsvwrx

    nsvwrx Active Member

    I know, having an AMAZING ss tune on my car, that he does amazing work. He does everything to make sure his customer is satisfied with his work. I know i have numerous times, being paranoid, emailed him logs of my car to make sure everything is fine.. and he has responded EVERYTIME. I am certain if there was something wrong with my map he would adjust the map for me. I have full trust in SS
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  48. wrxin8or

    wrxin8or Mullitt Staff Member

    So wait a second here....Scott/USDD, this occurred three months ago, and you are just now bringing it up?


    Are you serious?
     
  49. Meredith

    Meredith Banned

    Scott is the man, if Will or Scott every make suggestions for my car I almost always follow (i'm not totally down with WJM castor stuff) as they have more experience or knowledge on subarus than I do. Secondly I always get cheese on my hamburgers.....
     
  50. BrianGT

    BrianGT Banned

    Why is this still going on... everything that could possibly have been said has been said. Why not close this thread and continue this drama offline.
     
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