an he is 10000% right. More people need to learn about BSFC and BSAC. Your engine will use ALOT more "FUEL" if its E85 than C16 or 93 Octane. It uses 30-40% more fuel. Most of the honda guys are running 1000cc injectors to make 400whp when on 93 octane you can run 550cc. The only benefit i see to E85 is you can run more "boost" on it than pump gas, but if it takes double the fuel, why bother. Id rather buyt a 55 gallon drum of C16 an keep a 5 gallon jug in my car for when i want to play. Or you could always just run water injection but thats a whole other debate. E85 as an alternative fuel is great, you have to start somewhere an making strides with actually using a different fuel is great. I just dont think its the supreme alternative we are looking for, but its a step in the right direction
Keep in mind when you purchase pump gas it has up to 10% ethanol blended in according to the stickers on every pump I've seen in the last 6 months. What if they decide to make that 20% ? I think Matt stated earlier that the stock pump and injectors are good to about 500-550whp, but that WILL change depending on how much Ethanol is blended in. Does anybody know of a company that isn't blending 10% ethanol into their fuel ? Considering it appears we don't really have a choice but to run a certian amount of Ethanol this is good info even if you aren't wanting to switch over to 100% E85. my $.02
Most pump fuel has had an ethanol blend for quite sometime, I know it was 7% for a very long time now its up to 10%. I highly doubt that its going to go to 30% blend anytime soon.
With as volatile as the oil prices have been lately there is no telling what might happen. People are freaking out about the fuel prices. From everything I've read here I hope they DON'T increase the amount of ethanol blended into pump gas. How much of a blend before it starts to eat away at the rubber, steel, and aluminum parts in the fuel system?
I would pay a premium for 100% dino-fuel, and I think so would many people. I think if they went to 20% Ethanol, you would start to see a lot of strange things happening in people's cars over time.
Actually while the 1000cc injectors and dual walbros might be needed for a GT35r set up, the average stage 2 car would run just fine with a single 255 lph and 565 sti pinks or the equivalent. We are talking about 30% more flow...stock injectors 400+30%=520cc From this level of flow, people are seeing around 240 awhp and 280 lb/ft of torque on a 2.0 liter engine with just a stage 2 set up!! That was also without turning up the boost really high...just a stage 2 car. I would have to say that is not exactly something you need 1000cc injectors and dual pumps for. Now again....if you are running the GT35R well, in that case you are already upgrading the crap out of your fuel system! The other thing that you are forgetting is that E85 is a more efficient fuel. So while it take a bit more the engine is able to use it more efficiently. Besides, name one place you can get race gas for cheaper than regular unleaded....besides an E85 pump!!
Actually you get more hp per BTU of fuel...but you get less btu per gallon...so call it what you want.
Sure...then you just have to buy a meth pump, injectors for the meth, run new fuel lines, get something to hold the meth, worry about the pump failing and grenading your motor, oil contamination, oh and the corrosive nature of methanol (MUCH more corrosive than ethanol).
I filled up at Shell last weekend. $60 for a tank of the most piss-poor gas I have ever bought. I thought the car was going to start backfiring when I cranked up the AC. With that being said, any new idea is good info if you can explore it and identify if it is a viable option or not. I think this is a great thread! One day soon hopefully we will either become fossil fuel independent or non-dependent! Case and point if you live in India this is an option you will have next year. It may not be a great option and some people may be downright sickened by it. BUT, I would get one and not only get all the hot chicks but garage the WRX for weekends and track time. Even if the vehicle says it's a TATA somewhere on it....................Isn't that a slang reference to a body part?????? http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html http://www.tatamotors.com/
Ive heard about that car. It can go with a full tank of gas( while compressing its own air) ACROSS THE DAMN COUNTRY.
That is pretty interesting! Basically they are using a scuba tank to power a damn car, lol. A nice steel scuba tank usually is compressed to around 4200 psi. So it is about the same thing...just a little bigger and carbon fiber, lol. I am not only interested in E85, but other fuels as well, bio-diesel is pretty exciting stuff too. San Fransisco is currently putting in place a plan to operate all their diesel powered buses and trucks on bio. BUT, biodiesel is not something that a wrx can run....soooo next best thing I have found is E85. There is quite a bit of research currently on cellulostic ethanol. When that hits the streets, we are looking at $1.50 a gallon 105 octane E85. Personally I think it will be one of many options that are the start to energy independence...along with drilling our own soil, lol.
In the meantime, a real, not half assed public transport system might be desirable. I understand the reason it was shot down before was because many of the upper class folk were worried about the riff raff. From my experience here in North Atlanta riff raff seems to get around just fine without public transport.
this is a great thread, i've been wanting to read more about E85 for a while. I've got my dad running full bio-diesel in his jetta for the summer and he loves it.
Very cool! I have actually considered getting an old jetta or mercedes diesel and doing the biodiesel thing. But E85 sounds fun for performance!
Here is a VERY interesting article by the EPA. It shows a 40% peak brake thermal efficiency of an E98 or E100 engine with 19:1 compression. It cites that these engines could be as efficient as modern diesel engines! Anyway, enjoy! http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/epa-fev-isaf-no55.pdf
Have you actually been to any of these stations in person? When I finished reading that thread on nasioc about a year ago, I went down the street to the Whitehall St station only to find that the E85 pump that was only 2 miles from my house was a fleet only pump, and you had to have a special corporate issued gas car to even buy it, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case with all of them. The Nasioc thread is a interesting read, but I am sticking to gasoline for now.
Ain't that the truth...The history of MARTA is one of the most embarrassing stories out there. Imaigine where our city could be now if it had been allowed to grow into a proper transit system, as opposed to a fun disney ride.
Nothing other than a tune. No reg or fuel pump. The general consensus is that you can go right around 30% or so on a stock vehicle before you have issues. This would not work in the winter on a stage 2 car, when you have a denser charge, but seems fine for now.I plan on doing more before then...in the upcoming weeks in fact. I am also keeping a watch on IDCs for now to make sure it does not go too high. My understanding is stock injectors can go around 105%. With tapering in the higher rpms of boost, it is fine. If you are running a larger turbo, they would not handle it. Before I switch to 100% E85 I am going to change the injectors and the fuel pump. I may do the regulator too just for ease in switching back and forth from gas, but it is not needed if you develop multiple tunes...one for gas, one for 50/50, one for 100% E85, etc. I plan on running 100% E85 on a daily basis. So for me the only time I would have to worry about anything else is if I was going to go on a long trip or some place that did not have E85 for a prolonged period of time. At that point I can revert back to my gas map via a real time swap with the AP and I am good. Seems all the tables that are needed are real time tables, so switching real time maps is an option.
Keep a very close eye on your fuel filter. I've read about E85 loosen debris and junk in the tank/lines and clogging the filters.
Well, not sure how to keep an eye on it, lol, but yeah I am aware that it can totally clean out the fuel system of junk. I was planning on changing it out after a couple of tanks or if I start noticing any lean conditions. But thanks for the heads up!
I know this is about E85, but I had this sent to me today, and since your talking about economy I thought this might be a good solution. I think I am going to build one and try it. www.gethydropower.com HHO gas, its easy enough.
I may get a E85 map made as well. I already run 8 gallons of gas that has 10% ethanol in it with 2 gallons of E85. Car seems very happy
Fuel economy does not seem to be too bad, but then again it is only 20% more ethanol than 93 summer gas, so it is not going to change a very noticeable amount. Besides that, I have been wailing on the boost a lot during tuning...lot of WOT runs and that is never good for fuel economy. But looking at injector duty cycles, they are only up a little and it is still running pig rich, so I have some fuel I can pull back out. Yeah saw the HHO stuff. I read for a bout 5-6 hours on it on various sites. I just donno....seems like it could work...just a little scared of it igniting with the heat and such of the turbo, lol. Just make sure and have the flame arrestor they talk about. There was a study done by some university showing that it could allow for leaner running of the car with the HHO gas. So in effect you would just be substituting some gas for HHO.
One of the guys over at one of the sites that I have been to lately has a 2.5rs that has had some great results with E85. They call it their drunken boxer, lol. Here is the link: http://www.grantouringlabs.com/drunkenboxer.html
http://www.nist.gov/oiaa/KarlSimon.pdf And a bit more in depth study by the EPA...we can play that game all day long if you want. Anyone can write their opinion on anything, but backing it up is the tough part!
New cellulosic E85 does not even use food sources....mulch, kudzu, switchgrass, non-food items that don't effect the food supply.
I put 3 gals of E85 in the car on top of 13 gals of 93 and the car hates it on my pump gas tune. I'm actually going to go top the tank off a dilute the mix more. I dont have any logs to back it up but just a serious lack of low end power and a rougher idle, so says my butt dyno.
how much E85 is actually made from that. I can see it now, miles of KUDZU farms out west. they don't affect food supplies in a direct sense, but when land is converted to grow fuel since it's heavily subsidized, well that's another story. you'll pay for it one way or another, via high prices or taxes. pick your poison.
Actually there are 2 plants going in locally, one here in georgia that will work off of pine byproducts and one in Tennessee that will work off of Kudzu and other non-food cellulosic matter. The good part Nicad is that they are getting the kudzu off of farm land that has been overgrown in places they are not planting crops. They are also getting their switchgrass and such from non-crop areas or from waste products from harvesting...for instance the stalks from grain that are currently just burned or thrown away. As for just throwing it in the tank...ya, it's not going to run right. It requires different values. Once the computer compensates for it, it will give you more power, but in the mean time it will run like crap! Not even sure if the computer CAN compensate for it in the open loop tables...just not sure it has that ability. Something interesting that I noticed, before my knock learning tables were pretty much zeroed out (positive being computer adding more timing, negative being bad and pulling timing). No positive, no negative anywhere on the maps. Since switching to the E30 and TUNING for it, I have noticed several areas on the map that are now positive by 3-4 degrees!! These areas came right around peak torque...2800-3400 rpm. The ole butt dyno says a good increase in low end....but then I tuned for it. Without tuning, you are running lean and the computer will pull timing! Thus the loss of low end. The rough idle comes from the computer not knowing what the hell you did to it and trying to compensate with fuel trims and trying to figure it out. If you have a method of tuning the car, I'd be happy to work with you and try to get a E30 map together for you though! Either open source or ST.... but open source you will have to help teach me the various tables and such.
peanut gallery comment: http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=85330&newsChannel=topNews cliff note: opec president says oil may go to 170/barrel in the coming months. now, keep this in mind, the saudis raised production up by 300K brls/mo last month and another 200K brls/mo this month.
man I wish I could essentially dictate prices of goods I produce by releasing press statements of self fulfilled price action.
Don't even get me started about these guys....one of the reasons I started tuning for E85, lol. Anything to keep cash out of their pockets!
Weird that grantouringlabs link you posted now has a login/password on it for some reason. It didn't before.
Well it seems on a stage 2 car the effective limit is around 30 percent. I went to right at 33% mix the other night and I am now maxing out my injectors in 75 degree weather. I hit 100.7% duty cycle at 64xx rpm the other night. Given I am running slightly more boost than the average stage 2 car, but it would be pretty close at that rpm to a standard stage 2 as I do taper off quite a bit towards red line. I am guessing that in cold weather they would be insufficient and would lean out too much at those rpms. Well injectors should be coming in at the end of this week or the beginning of next week! Then I can really see what this stuff can do.
All I have to say is that all of you that do not want to switch or do not have a place near by are missing out BIG TIME!!! This stuff is just nuts. I can honestly say it has changed the way my car responds a BUNCH. The turbo spools sooo much quicker, the car pulls harder and there is NO KNOCK at all. I am not sure what the limits are right now, but I can only imagine. Matt, for your car...not sure if you have tuned it yet or not for E85, but the WGDC are NOT going to be anything like gas. You are going to have to pull a lot out of them to keep it from overboosting.
Just below that at 18.5 tapering to 15.5 at redline. But it was overboosting a bit...once I got that under control it was great! I had to pull a LOT from my WGDC tables. But the difference of 18.5 on gas and 18.5 on E85 is profound!