So, i have a good friend that owns a large car dealership and have access to auction car prices and stumbled upon a few that I really like... for under $30k, what is your choice for a sports car and why? my choices are below... I have driven most of them they all their ups and downs. I think i`m favoring the Porsche for many reasons but wanted to know what you guys have to say. 1. 1st gen (987) cayman (non-s): superior over the boxster? yet to drive one so I will reserve my comments... boxter vs cayman is a tough one. 2. (987) boxster-s: drove the regular boxster and was completely sold... S version couldnt possibly be worse 3. 987 2nd gen boxster (non-s): would be a smart choice to get away from RMS issues but still have to deal with direct injection carbon build up stuff.. would pay more upfront but have less issues (I think) in the long run 4. 370z: cheap fun. eats more fuel than the Porsches but still a japanese car afterall. only known issues is the oil temperature rising which i wont have to worry about since i`ll be DD the car 95% of the time... paying for tires is gonna suck. 5. fr-s/brz: new car for the same money... makes sense logically (insurance, gas, maintenance, etc etc) but not as heart-pounding as the Porsches to me for many reasons. 6. keep my WRX, turn it into a track car and buy another cheap daily: my car is at 180k miles so I would have to do some major overhaul to keep it running as a track car... I could buy a nice comfortable luxury car for the more special occasions and DD the wrx without worrying about mileage, etc..
i would, but the car at 180k miles.. i dunno.. maybe a new engine/tranny transplant is on the way soon? if that is the case it may not be a bad choice for me to get the ultimate toy NOW and do the two car thing later? and to be quite honest, i`m not 100% in love with my car... i MAY fall in love when it has a bit more powa and cornering capabilities, but it`s that idea i cant give up... it keeps making me wonder how it would react if i do this and that..there arent that many cars that can keep me busy and feeling good if I achieve the results I want, while being relatively light on the pocket... it's quite confusing lol
Sell the Subaru and buy the Cayman and a POS Civic daily driver. The Cayman is an amazing track car. Its designed to be right from the factory. Everything about it screams motorsports. They are nice to drive, extremely well balanced and they really don't seem to have any problems. Maintenance is no worse than any other luxury brand. I don't think a well maintained one will have any problem going 150k plus.
Have you considered maintenance costs of owning a Porsche? Or is this like your suspension where you are going to ask a lot of questions and not ever buy anything?
Subarus are very expensive to track if you do so on a regular basis. It was part of the reason I got rid of my bugeye.
I agree Matt. For what the car costs factory it is VERY expensive to track. I have a friend that stopped racing them for that reason. I don't think the OP has even been to a track yet at all though...so I don't know how many 500 dollar a pop track days will be in the car's future. Also, track time is also uninsured time. Dent repairs are cheaper on the Subaru than a Porsche. It doesn't make sense for track junkie's and racers on a Subaru anymore (depending)...I still love it and I know Griggs has built a great car though.
Save some money and consider a Honda S2000. Not much slower than the Porsches you're considering, cheaper to maintain, RWD, slick transmission, and handles great with simple mods
In all fairness to the Porsche its much faster than a S2K and handles extensive track use much better. Edit, I think people give the S2000 way to much credit as a track car. While they are great cars in stock form they never seem to do well modified. I've driven some very well setup S2000s in both NA and turbo incarnations and none of them have been that impressive.
I never really felt comfortable in an S2000... and i`m not talking about just the interior space haha... i dunno, it feels really nervous and twitchy.
that`s the feeling i got when i hear horror stories about other luxury brands, whereas Porsche seems to be fairly reliable. and let's be honest, subaru labor/parts when paid in OEM prices isnt exactly cheap either...
oh yea to answer the original question, i finally did settle on the ST coilovers, and then decided that my engine is still hanging off the front axle and making it a bit stiffer wont get me what i want... i mean, my car values at $2-3K max at the dealerships for a trade-in, i`d have to be very careful spending %50+ of that value on suspension alone on a car that I do not know for sure how long it will last me...
I agree on the money part...but you need to research more if you think this was the issue... I am pretty sure Subaru's still handle incredibly well in a lot of racing series. That is not a S2000 at all. Sounds like you need a driver mod.
you`re right... s2000 is too sharp and too quick for me actually, which is why i`m scared to drive it at the limits :hs:
I have been having the 370z vs BRZ debate myself lately.A good used 370z is the same money as the new BRZ. I had not considered the Cayman. The cost to maintain scares me though and I drive quite a few miles(about 2K per month). I personally am leaning toward the BRZ due to the cost to buy, fuel cost, insurance and maintenance cost(tires are cheap for the BRZ in stock sizes). Also, the BRZ has more cargo room with the larger trunk and package shelf..I mean back seat.
Tough one... Cayman is a sweet car. Guess I always looked at the Boxter as a chick car. 370z is awesome, but I don't fit. Finally saw a BRZ in person recently and was very impressed (with the looks anyways)... Only neg. I saw was the TINY brakes...
The BRZ is so light that for street use, I don't see a need for more than pads, lines and fluid to have a excellent braking. Also, how do you not fit in the 370z? I test drove a 2012 base model and while it felt a little claustrophobic due to me being used to the STI, I fit well. I am 6'6" and about 210 with a 38" waist and 34" inseam. To me the 370z is just about everything I want in a RWD sports car. It has good power, tons of grip and a great sound.
i think personally it`s a matter of HOW you drive. to me, the BRZ/FR-S is a more focused sports car... but if you want to be able to cruise AND drive spirited, the Z may be a better choice... better interior quality (IMO), bigger displacement engine for the U.S. highways. However, if you want to take the car to the redline, or try to be really accurate with your steering work, foot work, i think the BRZ/FR-S will be a more rewarding experience (have not driven one yet)... the 370z, when you are just driving at a quick pace, it`s pretty nice, but when you really push it, it feels laggy... in the corners, even though it feels stable, it feels heavy, and when you take the engine to the redline, it doesnt feel like 300+ horsepower... just a nice smooth surge, not that, "holy crap i just stepped on a bomb" feeling...
i find it really interesting how people find the boxster as a chick car and cayman as not, even though, in reality, cayman is the derivative version of the boxster, and more of a 'fill in the gap' car... but i`ll say it... i would rather spend the $30k on a car and not have to worry about what others think of me haha... as much as I LOVED The miata when I had it, i always always wished it was either black or silver rather than that bright red :naughty:
I would go for the BRZ over the 370z from a reliabilty standpoint.I think the Subaru would be a better all around car.As far as a Porsche I would think they are $$ to own/fix/insure.
I'm a little shorter (6'4") and about 30 pounds fatter)... I guess your right. I fit, but I'm just not used to it being that snug. I agree, I'm used to the WRX and STI. I've never been in the BRZ or the Cayman... I'm assuming those would be a tight fit as well. To the OP.. as far as the Boxster being a chick car... In the end, its your car.. who cares what others think. Its just underpowered, covertable Porsche Lite to me... Cayman is a step up.
I know putting things down like this helps clear the mind and put things in perspective. I have done it before. Even replying to the thread helps me sort through my thoughts. I have been researching and trying to decide what I want to do for my next car. I don't want to part with my STI all that much. I just have to have one car that can do almost everything. I can't swing the 2 car things right now. If asked to choose between the cars you listed, I can tell you this. I would take the Z assuming the cost of tires does not scare you off. The BRZ would be my next choice as it will be cheaper on just about everything over the Porsche's and the Z. The repairs that are not part of regular maintenance would be expensive on the Porsche. If you DIY the regular maintenance, then it isn't too bad on that front.
Yeah, I know what you mean on the Z. I may drive a Cayman just to say I have driven a Porsche. :lol: I have always thought the same about the Boxster as well.
Welcome to NA motors. The turbo pull is addicting but when you move to NA or centrifugal superchargers...the torque band is nice and flat and the HP curve has a nice, almost constant slope. You don't get that "holy crap" pull anymore. I have driven some crazy fast vettes and other NA cars and a Subaru will sometimes "feel" faster when it isn't thanks to the lag and hammer on power.
If you get the Cayman will you have a backup car. Cause if something tears up on it, it will NOT be cheap to fix it in any shape or form and you may have to park it for a little while (not sure what your financial standing is nor is it any of my business). For me when I had the M3 it was a matter of when something broke. The entire cooling system needed to be replaced as preventive maintenance on the M3 (totaling close to $3000 and the VANOS system needed to be inspected and checked another $2000 as preventive maintenance) was just more expensive than I wanted to deal with. Financially I was just fine and could afford to buy a brand new M3 but I just got tired of dumping money in cars that do nothing but lose value....guess you can say I didn't care about that hobby like I once did and lost interest. It's all a matter of what you feel comfortable with. I just know any work on Porsche is never cheap to do.
option 7: keep the wrx and drive it until it wont move under its own power. take the add'l savings from not pulling the trigger now and perhaps more options open up.
I don't think its fair to rank the BRZ as more reliable than anything yet. Its a brand new engine in a new chassis. We really have no idea how reliable its going to be. Also lets be honest I wouldn't rank Subarus as the worlds most reliable car. The Nissans seem to hold up very well, I wouldn't have a problem buying a 350z or 370Z with over 100k.
well.. duh haha. i know what you`re trying to say, but it's not really that for the 370z... compared to the boxster/cayman or the BRZ, it's just not that eager to rev... it feels as if it has a really heavy flywheel. the speedo moves quickly and i know i`m moving quick, but the engine revs soo slow... i dont know what it is, maybe it's the gear ratio, but the engine just feels sluggish and not very willing to rev.
i drove a C6 vette (non-Z06). i love how the motor sits at 1500 rpm going 70 mph :roflpower everywhere) but the lack of precision in overall feel had me walking away. it has a charm of, 'i`m trying to tame a monster' sort of a feel, and for the money it seems a bargain, but just not my cup of tea.
that`s what has been happening for a few years haha.. kudos to my car and allpro, it`s still running like champ
I hear you.. I had a similar thread going at a porsche forum a while back, and ALL of them tell me if you cannot afford it comfortably dont buy it... in fact, most of them bought their cars 100% with cash lol. having said that, I really think the 987 mach 2 versions of the boxster would be the most reliable since they do away with the IMS and RMS system altogether (which seems to be the most issue) and still be within the price range i`m thinking about.. correct me if I`m wrong, but i think Porsche is a bit more reliable and less finicky than BMWs (especially the M-series where they have a lot of electric sensors and astronaut high-tech stuff).. I hear that the M3 needs a valve adjustment every once in a while along with other stuff... whereas Porsches, other than the fact that it's a boxer layout with the engine being in the rear for the added labor cost, seems fairly basic.
Look into all aspects of maintenance. Yes the E46 M3 needed valve adjustments every so often. But here's a kicker....the freaking oil 'had' to be BMW special Castrol 10w-60 oil. Some say it not so but I read of several spinning bearings when they used like Mobil 1 or some off the shelf synthetic. The Castrol my M3 needed was close to $100 for just the oil and the filter alone. BMW recommended 15k mile oil changes....well at 8000 miles my blackstone reports started showing elevated amounts of bearing materials.....NOPE! So look into whether it needs a specialty oil that isn't available at the auto store and trans stuff etc. Also check into the clutch life. Research the cost to own aspects of each car you consider and weigh that into the equation. In the end get what you like best and feel comfortable with. Happy hunting!
it will be a while... i just enjoy debates and what others think of the choices... EVERYONE told me when my brother bought a 2009 Audi TT he`s gonna have trouble yada yada yada, but the reality is the car has been great.. i mean, the non-s TT is pretty much a VW GTI lol.. I know TT and cayman is like apples and oranges, but i think if you just look after your cars it should be ok... RMS and IMS, totally different story though haha. Also, it seems like the newer cars with direct injection ALL have issues with sludging so we`ll see.
Wait...so the speed is moving up quickly. Isn't that what makes a car fast? :| I'm not trying to be a dick...you are just saying things that don't add up. A S2000 is too much car...so I'll buy a Porsche. A C5 or C6 Vette is not precise. A 370z accelerates quickly but is slow. You have to keep in mind. 99.9% of drivers confuse car handling characteristics with improper driving technique. What feels like push or instability is more likely improper cornering in most cases (even for great drivers). All of the cars you have mentioned have been praised for their handling by pro drivers that can put down back to back runs on a track that actually shows what the car is capable of. For most of us (even the best drivers), we can not replicate those characteristics on the street...or don't have enough seat time in the car to accurately pilot it to the limit safely. That takes a good amount of time in a car to do it correctly...unless you are some kind of bad ass driver. Yes...there are some cars that cover up mistakes better than others thanks to modern technology...but I would be careful about making assumptions about cars with such limited time or just riding in them. Much like I tried to explain to you before with the suspension...what you are feeling and how that relates to the car isn't always accurately translated. Just my .02.
yea i understand... on the streets you can only experience so much. you`re not being a dick at all! i wanted everyone's opinion and to share them and to respect them is the point of these debates isnt it? if anything, since you have more experience on the track, etc i`m all ears when you are sharing your opinion. having said that, i still stand by the 'feelings' or the assumptions i made after driving/being driven in these cars. the Z is a fast car, period, but really, something just feels really sluggish... s2000 is a great car, but I never feel very comfortable pushing it; that is most likely my problem (driver error like you mention) and I have ran a few auto-x and driven it at the limits at a private track in savannah with the s2000 so i can say i`m not good enough for the car I have not been able to push the boxster/cayman at the limits, but have driven the boxster in a test drive and been driven in the cayman at a skip barber open house event... in all fairness, s2000 is a bit more predictable than the boxster (for my driving skills) when moderately pushed, but the cayman, in the hands of a professional, was just at a different level... that same day there were cars such as the 911, M3 (e92), lotus evora, and the cayman just felt right to me. I dunno what it is... I know when the s2000 breaks loose it will behave in a certain progessive way, but i`m not too sure about what the boxster will do in a same situation (need more seat time but that was my initial impression), but before it gets to that limit it feels more planted than the s2000... I dunno.. i always felt like the s2000 will just snap oversteer on me if i`m not careful with it. BRZ/FR-S, i have only been driven in Matt's when it wasnt opened up, so I shouldnt make any assumptions, but what I felt, in all honesty, was that it rides very busy and the overall quality, for me, isnt really a $30k car for me. if i was in a market for a new car, it would top the list, and i think things like the gas mileage, etc, it is a VERY VERY smart and logical choice. I also love the purpose of the car; it is designed to be a true sports car from the beginning, unlike the Z where it started from the parts bin and a SUV chassis. but the end result, i wish it was about $5k cheaper when fully loaded. I think it's fabulous when going all out, but when you want to settle down and comfortably cruise, it may not be as comfy as the Z or the boxster/cayman... if we were in europe or asia where roads are narrower and we drive at a lower speed it makes sense, but here in the states, with a huge highway, i`d like an engine that is not always screaming (same case for the s2000). but really, all this debate and such becomes useless when i hear the exhaust note on a flat-6, and that i cannot explain with words so what gives haha.
C6 vette: i`m sure in the hands of a professional driver it is a beast in both the straights/corners, but on the road, driven by an average joe (me), there is a HUGE play in the steering, and the way the suspension loads, kind of funky... like, you brake before a turn, and the reason why you do that is because you`re not sure if at that speed you will have enough traction to clear the corner. but the vette, after you get off the brake, that certainty of traction at the wheels, i cannot sense right away. i`m sure it will clear corners at high speed, and maybe because i dont have experience driving such wide tires at the front it lacks a bit of steering feel, but i was not at all confident driving the vette around the twisty road. one car that i feel really confident on the road to drive quick is a mini cooper for that same reason; after you get off the brakes, the car's posture and traction, i know exactly (or i feel confident) that the car will follow the intended line. but then again, that is probably my driving skill level haha.. light weight front wheel drive car vs v8 rwd muscle car.
Well of the originally mentioned cars I would be torn between the 350/370z and the Cayman. The Z should be less expensive to maintain but the Cayman has a little more panache. If you are looking for that upscale flavor I say buy the Cayman as a DD and get a cheap car to put on the track. The Cayman is a well balanced car with good enough power such that it should be able to put a smile on your face whenever you drive it. Get a cheap car that you can put together and track. Then if it gets a dent or something brakes it will not cost an arm and a leg to fix. An old Japanese rwd car 300z, 240sx or and RX7.
Save 10-12k from the porsche family and check out a 135i if you can find a 6 speed. You will need some attention to the suspension to tighten things up, but it is a good balance of daily driver and capable around the track. Also, the HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) issues have been dealt with- with recalls being done and an supplemental 120k warranty on it.
drove that car... great usable power and awesome brakes, etc... i cant get by its looks though... and compared to the boxster, it feels more like a sporty passenger car vs an outright sports car. i was completely forgetting about it though haha good thing you brought it up. mind you, the one i drove was an automatic so maybe (probably) the manual is even better.. still kinda looks weird to me haha.